Why Your Relationships Keep Falling Apart (Attachment Styles Explained)
Everyone to the Lion Counseling Podcast. I'm Mark Godland, founder of Lion Counseling and certified EMDR therapist.
Zack Carter:And I'm Zach Carter, counselor and coach.
Mark Odland:And our mission is to help men to break free, to heal deep, and to become the Lions they were created to be. Today's episode is about why your relationships fall apart. The way you love, fight, and even parent is not random. It's shaped by something deep inside, what some call your attachment style. And so in this episode, we'll uncover how these hidden patterns influence your relationships and what you can do to grow into healthier, stronger connections.
Mark Odland:And since you're already here, if you don't mind hitting that subscribe button, we're, coming up on 10,000 subscriptions. Thanks to you guys. Thank you so much. And, without further ado, Zach, let's jump in.
Zack Carter:Let's do it. So I I'd like to start attachment styles with a story. Because for me, maybe it's because I'm a little slow or just had a hard time with this or what, but like attachment style stuff didn't really connect with me. I didn't really quite understand it. Like, I got taught in my master's program.
Zack Carter:I read a book on it. I'd watch videos, and it just, like, didn't kinda click. And then, like, a few weeks ago, I finally saw a video where I just felt like, oh, I get it now. I've seen the light. Nice.
Zack Carter:And now now I'm I'm part of the cult. So I'm really excited to, like, bring this. And so the story I'd like to start with is, my wife and I actually. And I got permission to share this. So Nice.
Zack Carter:I was like, this cool if I do this? She's like, yeah. Go for it. So yeah. So when we first got together, like, we enjoyed hanging around each other.
Zack Carter:But when conflict started to arise, we approach conflicts very differently. So she wanted to talk about it. I was like, why do we gotta talk about it? Like, let's just sweep this under the rug. Let's just let it go.
Zack Carter:And that's hilarious because if you've been watching our episodes, I'm like, you gotta talk. You gotta talk. I was like, why are we doing this? And so yeah. So our fights would like get pretty intense at times.
Zack Carter:Not always, but there were a few fights that we had that were pretty intense. And it was because I didn't wanna talk about it. And she did. And so eventually, we figured out I actually figured this out through Gottman more so than attachment But Gottman talks about the four horsemen of the apocalypse. And one of the one of the horsemen is called stonewalling.
Mark Odland:Sure.
Zack Carter:And so stonewalling is basically a fleeing behavior. Right? So you like Mhmm. You just shut down. And so like you're physically present, but like mentally you go off somewhere else.
Zack Carter:So I would do that. If if, you know, if that wasn't working, I like would physically leave. I'm like, I'm out of here. I'm done with this. I'm not gonna talk about this anymore.
Zack Carter:Sure. Right? And so I found ways to like get away from the problem. To flee from problem. Right?
Zack Carter:And my wife didn't like that. She was like, you need to come back. We need to talk about this. Right? Right.
Zack Carter:Right. And so in attachment language, we would call my behaviors avoidant. Right? I avoided the conflict. I avoided intimacy.
Zack Carter:Right? And on her end, it was like what some people I wouldn't call her this, especially now, I definitely wouldn't say that she's this, but like what some people would call clingy. Like, we need to talk about this. We're gonna talk about it now. I don't feel good.
Zack Carter:I'm anxious. Right? And the way I figure out this anxiety is that like you and I connect on a deeper level.
Mark Odland:Right. Right? Yeah.
Zack Carter:And so that's kind of my intro to attachment styles. So there there are three basic styles, and then I'll just see before we really get into those styles, Mark, I'll I'll throw it to you. But there's three basic styles when we're talking about attachment styles. They're secure. So briefly, what what is that?
Zack Carter:That's people in a healthy way come together, they have open dialogue, they discuss their emotions, their desires, their thoughts with each other in a calm healthy way usually. Not always calm Sure. Usually. Anxious is fear of rejection, fear of abandonment. You're going to leave me, so I have to do whatever I can to make you stay.
Zack Carter:Right? And avoidant is, hey, I'm just in it for a good time. Like, I'm gonna be present until it's not fun, till it gets too serious, then I'm gonna be out. I'm gonna go back to doing fun things. If you're single, it's like, oh, I'm just gonna date a bunch of people.
Zack Carter:I'm not really gonna get attached to one person. I'm gonna date around. Right? Sure. So those are the three types, right?
Zack Carter:We have secure. Alright. So we're forming an intimate bond. Anxious is that I need that intimate bond to make myself feel better and you can't go away, you can't talk to other other women or other men. And then avoidant is why can't we just have fun?
Zack Carter:Let's just let it go. What's the big deal? Right? Right.
Mark Odland:Right.
Zack Carter:What are your thoughts, Mark?
Mark Odland:Yeah. No. I mean, I think, you know, you've you've definitely done the deep dive into attachment theory more than I have, but I we were talking before the show a little bit on there's kind of another model, through my trainings with marriage and family therapist, right, where we do the genogram. Right? It's like a family tree that we do in session with a couple or with an individual, and we start to see patterns emerge.
Mark Odland:And we use little symbols and lines to indicate the kind of relationships that people have with one another. And so if people have heard the term enmeshment, for example, that might connect a little bit to one of these attachment styles, right, when you kind of feel like you lose yourself and you're kind of one thing. Right? Or the emotional cutoff. Things seem too volatile, too escalated, too difficult in the relationship.
Mark Odland:And so there's like no overlapping reality. It's like you have to cut yourself off out of like self preservation, essentially. And then if I remember right, like the two solid lines between the symbols or between the people on the family tree is more of that secure attachment style. So I think that all makes intuitive sense for me kind of with my background, Zach. And even what you described at the beginning very much echoes what what I learned was called the pursuer distancer relationship.
Mark Odland:One person continues to push, push, push to try to get an answer, to try to get resolution, to try to get connection. The other person is kinda like, man. I don't know about this. The timing, the the the intensity. I've gotta kinda run move, escape, run away.
Mark Odland:And when one person's running and the other person's chasing, it's not a good recipe. Right? Things tend to escalate. Yeah. And then we have we have solutions for that, but we're not gonna get ahead of ourselves here.
Mark Odland:So I'll take it back to you.
Zack Carter:That's perfect. Yeah. And they drive each other crazy. Right? And so these attachment styles and I don't know about the genogram because I do genograms with my clients as well.
Zack Carter:Usually, friendships aren't included in that. And attachment and so I'd be curious on your thoughts on this, but attachment style can also affect friendships. It can also affect parenting. I know the genogram would definitely talk about parenting. And it could affect how you engage in your careers, how you engage in your communities.
Zack Carter:The thing that I will say is that what I've seen with a bunch of clients is that sometimes they have a specific attachment style in their close connected relationships. And then they act differently in the workplace, right? Because in some ways like your boss, your employees, your coworkers, you may not need to get super connected to them, right? So maybe you're not Right. Afraid that they're gonna leave.
Zack Carter:You're not afraid that they're going to like, it's just like, oh, yeah. They they just come and But you have this person that, you know, if you're married to them, you're gonna be there the rest of your life. Right? And so you may act one way in the workplace in a different way in relationships, and it may overlap in both. So so where does the avoidant style come from?
Zack Carter:The avoidant style comes from as a baby, you cry out to your parent or caregiver, and they don't come or they come rarely. Right? So you you cry out and the baby learns, oh, I'm on my own. Like, if I need someone, if I need something, I gotta figure it out on my own. So I gotta be independent, I gotta be my own person.
Zack Carter:Mhmm. Mhmm. I can't depend on other people. Right? The anxious attachment begins as a baby.
Zack Carter:You you cry out for mom or dad. They ignore you initially. You cry out louder. They keep ignoring you. You have a meltdown and finally they come.
Zack Carter:Right? So the anxious attachment learns that I've gotta lose my freaking mind or people won't pay attention to me. People won't come to me. Right. Right?
Mark Odland:Right.
Zack Carter:So the way I had to like really like lock in these three concepts is I'm gonna have to, like, go to high school stereotypes. Like, watching a high school movie, you've got Brad, the football player. He's good looking. He's he's he's a great athlete. And he starts dating Samantha, the cheerleader.
Zack Carter:They go on a date or two. But he doesn't wanna really, like, put a label on the relationship. Samantha's like, oh, Brad. When are we gonna be a thing? Brad's like, oh, you know me, baby.
Zack Carter:I'm not interested in labels. Like, I'm just kinda trying to have fun. Right? And so, like, Brad's, like, dating all the cheerleaders. And, like, guys like me are watching that movie and I just, like, hate Brad.
Zack Carter:I'm like, freaking Brad? He's got he's got it all. He doesn't even realize it. And he's like, I can't I can't settle down. Right?
Zack Carter:Until, like, three quarters of the way through the movie, you find out Brad's dad's an alcoholic and he's, like, kind of abusive. And you're like, no. I feel bad for Brad. I'm like, I just want him to be happy. Right?
Zack Carter:And so, like, we learn we, like, learn, like, oh, like, Brad's this way because of, like, his upbringing. Right? So that's gonna be the avoidant. Right? Like, I'm just I'm just kinda dating around.
Zack Carter:I'm just kinda trying to have fun. Right? And then, like, Samantha is, like, anxious. Right? She's, like, texting Brad 37 times in ten minutes because he hasn't gotten back to her.
Zack Carter:And Brad's like, this girl's out of her mind. Like, she won't leave me alone. All his buddies are like, yeah, man. You need a dumper. She's too clingy.
Zack Carter:Right? And and, like, all Samantha's friends are like, baby, he loves you. And so, like, so so like Samantha is like, I gotta do whatever I can to like lock down Brad. Right? I gotta text him a bunch and I've gotta like scream and yell at him the next time I see him because he's hanging out with Susan or whatever.
Zack Carter:Right? So like this is how I had to conceptualize this in order to like understand attachment styles. And so Wow. These stereotypes. Right?
Zack Carter:And so like men can be anxious. Women can be avoidant. Right? It doesn't really matter on the sex. Right?
Zack Carter:But this is just kinda how it locked in. And we can just assume secure is like healthy. Right? You got two people. They wanna be around each other.
Zack Carter:They're emotionally healthy. Right? They're having a good relationship usually. Right? Any any thoughts on that?
Mark Odland:Well, first, just to make it clear to the audience, Samantha and Brad are definitely from a movie and and definitely not something from real life for you.
Zack Carter:Right.
Mark Odland:That that was not this is totally hypothetical.
Zack Carter:Totally hypothetical.
Mark Odland:No. Joking aside, I, yeah, when as soon as you started talking about this, it it really and for if anyone's skeptical out there, I mean, you know, that great. I mean, yeah. Research it on your own, you know, you know, filter it through your rational mind. Definitely.
Mark Odland:But I will say in my experience doing trauma therapy with EMDR therapy, I distinctly remember this wonderful family that I worked with years ago. And the kids were literally adopted from an orphanage in Eastern Europe where they didn't have enough nurses and they could barely keep them fed and diapered. But they did not have enough nurses to hold them when they cried. They couldn't get to them fast enough. And so predictably, what happened was these kids had major attachment issues.
Mark Odland:I think one or two of them were actually diagnosed with what's been in the DSM for a long time reactive attachment disorder, which is really heartbreaking for an adoptive parent, because you're pouring your love, your heart and soul into this child. And it's very difficult for that child to express love back. And there's a push and a pull and it can be very, very painful, very traumatic. Thankfully, that can heal.
Zack Carter:But
Mark Odland:it's tough. It's tough. It's a tough road. So I would just validate everything you're saying, Zach, that these things that might just seem like, oh, that's just Brad or that's just that's just their personality or that's just, you know, almost accepted because we see it all over the place, different different ways of relating. A lot of these things do have roots in early, early childhood.
Mark Odland:And we shouldn't really be surprised by that because that's when our little nervous system in our brains are developing and the what our nervous system has to do to cope. For example, when a little baby is sitting in a crib and they cry and cry and cry and cry, their brain is actually going into a fight or flight kind of situation. Right? And so they're fighting, they're yelling, they're protesting. Okay, I can't fight.
Mark Odland:What's the next best option? Flea. Flight. Run. No, I can't run.
Mark Odland:I'm in a crib. I'm stuck. I can't even walk. I can't even crawl. Oh.
Mark Odland:So, what's left? Freeze. Shut down. Prepare to die. Dissociate.
Mark Odland:Check out. Stare blankly at the ceiling. Man, that takes a toll on a on a little kid, right? So, and this isn't and I guess the last thing I'd say, Zach, is it's not like about blame. I know there are a lot of like parents who feel feel ill equipped with how to raise their kids, especially young parents or and a lot of people kind of do the best they can with the hand they're dealt, but even well intentioned loving parents got their issues, man.
Mark Odland:Me, myself included. And so it's it's hard not to, have that impact our kids in some way for better and for for worse. So
Zack Carter:Right. And I I love how you laid that out because that it it a lot of these strategies 'll find are bite fight, freeze, flee. Like, a lot of like, this attachment stuff. Like, as we get more into how these operate, you'll you'll start to see kind of those those strategies activate. So, Zach, do these just happen in childhood?
Zack Carter:Once you're out of childhood, are you good to go? No. No, unfortunately. Right. So you can be an You
Mark Odland:can become Brad.
Zack Carter:Yeah. Yeah. You can become Brad. Oh, no. Poor Brad.
Zack Carter:We've got all these young men being like, I wanna be like Brad.
Mark Odland:Let's start with that attachment style.
Zack Carter:No. You don't wanna be like Brad, bro. Alright. Okay. So yeah.
Zack Carter:So we definitely want, you know, as parents, as future parents, if you don't if you don't have kids yet, you do want to invest in your child's healthy attachment style. But if you're like, oh no, my kids are avoidant or they're anxious. I thought we did a good job. Maybe you did. Maybe you did.
Zack Carter:But things can happen, right? So if you have friendships that fall apart and people just leave you, if you have close intimate relationships and like everything seems to be going good and then so the person's like, I wanna move to Europe and you know, I I don't care about you or whatever. Like all of a sudden that's really hard on us because our world is what makes sense to us is that like, no, when I like reach out and connect with someone, they connect back to me. And so you can be in the secure attachment Mhmm. And get pulled to avoidant or get pulled to anxious.
Zack Carter:Interesting. Right? And so in the case of my wife and I, you know, I think we're both like semi secure with like tendencies. Like I don't think we were hardcore because this is a spectrum. So I think I like tended towards the avoidant.
Zack Carter:She tended towards the anxious, right? And then we had to learn how to compromise and move to be more overlapping. So I meet her needs. She meets my needs. I engage in difficult conversations.
Zack Carter:And occasionally, she lets conversations go. Go. We don't have to like talk about everything. Right? Mhmm.
Zack Carter:So it's not just childhood. It can be life experiences as well. Okay? So attachment styles tend to be stable, but they are plastic. Plastic.
Zack Carter:They They are are malleable. Malleable. Can change the healthier just like you were talking about with these kids in these orphanages. So don't give up if you're in that scenario, if you're parenting kids like that. Right.
Zack Carter:They can move to more be more secure. Right? It's probably harder, but they can move that way. And if you're in the secure, you know, you have to do your best in dating healthy people that tend to be secure if you can so that you don't get bumped one way or the other into the avoidant or to the anxious.
Mark Odland:Sure.
Zack Carter:So any thoughts before we get to the the the the stop the the three main attachment styles and what are things to look for in yourself or others?
Mark Odland:Yeah. I think I think just to throw out there that I know even though this this stuff might be new to some people, it actually is a is a pretty pretty solid theory that's pretty pretty functional when it comes to therapy and counseling. And even before like the gurus of couples counseling, the Gottmans that you mentioned. Mhmm. Before them, the most kind of research proven approach to couples counseling was emotionally focused couples therapy.
Mark Odland:And that is heavily based on attachment theory. And based on the idea that that same basic basic human need of when I cry out, is someone there for me? Does someone have my back? We grow up, we have adult responsibilities and adult language and adult ideas, and we feel grown up. But Susan Johnson, came up with this therapy really tapped into that idea.
Mark Odland:And she just said, You know what, we never really outgrow that need. At the end of the day, when we're hurt, when we're when we're when lonely, when we're in physical or emotional pain, when we basically just want to cry out, no, someone's there for us. And, and the way that we respond in a friendship, in a marriage, right, in a parenting relationship, either reinforces the feeling that the person is alone or rejected or reinforces the feeling that I'm secure and that I'm loved. Right? And so I think it's powerful what you're sharing, Zach.
Mark Odland:And and I think this next section is gonna be really helpful because people might be wondering now, oh, man. Which one am I? Like, I've seen different, you know, different parts. And so, like, it sounds like you're gonna go into that a little bit more detail, like the three styles and kinda what people might see in those styles. Okay.
Mark Odland:Awesome. Let's do it.
Zack Carter:Let's do it. Alright. So in this image, we're we're gonna see four attachment styles. So the reason I haven't really mentioned the fourth is that super rare. It's only like three percent of the population is anxious and avoidant.
Zack Carter:So we're not really going to cover that today. The main three we're covering is avoidant, secure, anxious. It's something like fifty percent of people are secure. And it's not exact, but it's something like, you know, twenty, twenty three percent are anxious, twenty, twenty three percent are avoidant, something around those stats. That's kind of how it looks in the population.
Zack Carter:What we're seeing in the different quadrants on this attachment style image, we've got bottom left, we've got secure, secure, right? So the line on the left shows how avoidant are you and the line across the bottom shows how anxious are you. Okay? So bottom right, we have the anxious attachment. And so that's high in anxiety, low in avoidance.
Zack Carter:Okay? So the anxious person is going to find ways to engage to connect with the other person. So and they can be very clever about it. Right? So, you know, they haven't heard from you in a while, maybe they show up to an event that you're putting on at work and say, Oh, I just came to support you.
Zack Carter:Because they're seeing, are we still good? Like, or are you trying to ignore me? Right? So they're gonna they're gonna send out some texts. They're gonna send out some calls.
Zack Carter:They're gonna try to, like Sure. See, like, hey, are we okay? You know, so I can calm down that anxiety. And if you don't get back to them, that's gonna send their anxiety way up. Right?
Zack Carter:Top left, that's that avoidance. So high in avoidance, low in anxiety. Okay? So avoidance can get anxious. Right?
Zack Carter:And their tendency if they do get anxious is to avoid the problem. Right? But the way that they strategize is that fleece strategy. Right? It's like, hey, let's just let this go.
Zack Carter:Let's get out of here. It can be addictive patterns. Right? So instead of engaging in a healthy committed relationships, I've worked with clients that are essentially avoid it because they use pornography. Right?
Zack Carter:It may not be because they use pornography exactly. So a better way of saying it is they they use that to feed into that avoidance strategy of, well, I can't get into a relationship yet until, like, I've got this thing knocked out. Avoidance will also avoid getting into relationships until they find the perfect person. Right? That's another way to avoid getting into a relationship is there's always a problem with the other people.
Zack Carter:Right. Right? There's there's always something going on with the other person that is is not not good for me because I want the perfect person. Right? Because they're gonna make you full and whole.
Zack Carter:Right? So here we see the four different attachment styles and some of the traits. So the top left secure tends to be warm and caring, trusting and forgiving. They have good boundaries. They manage their emotions well.
Zack Carter:They're responsive, they're honest and open. A couple other thoughts that's not in this graph on secure is they have a positive view of their self and of others. They're comfortable expressing their emotions. They can be self reliant, but also depend on others. They can do either one.
Zack Carter:Right? So what are some examples in media of this? So Superman. Right? So who Mark, who does Superman who's Superman in a relationship with?
Mark Odland:Lois Lane.
Zack Carter:Lois Lane. Superman doesn't date around. Like, Superman found his person and Superman stuck with his person. Right? The couple in Up.
Zack Carter:Right? The Pixar movie. Right? You see that they were together for a long time and eventually sadly if you haven't seen it, but it is at the beginning. So technically it's not a spoiler, but the like the wife dies.
Zack Carter:Right? So but they were in a secure healthy relationship. Right? They stayed together for a long time. Yep.
Zack Carter:Secure people tend to be thought of as boring. Right? It's It doesn't make for good for good movies, for good Hollywood movies. It doesn't. So usually someone starts secure.
Zack Carter:Let's call him John Wick. He's secure. He's in a healthy like, wasn't healthy and then he was in a healthy committed relationship. He leads being an assassin. He commits to this woman.
Zack Carter:They're connected. She passes away from cancer. She gives him a dog. The dog gets killed by Russians and all of a sudden dude's avoidant. He's like, I can't trust nobody, especially Russians.
Zack Carter:Right? And so like like he starts in the movie he starts secure. Right? And then becomes avoidant. Right?
Zack Carter:And so you might see it in the reverse. Usually couples are gonna start anxious or avoidant, and then by the end of the movie maybe they're secure in the relationship by the end. Okay.
Mark Odland:Interesting. Interesting.
Zack Carter:Yeah. Secure people don't make for good content, okay? But like we can think of like Jesus, right? Jesus was secure, Right? And so it's not that when we watch these movies that they change over the course of time, it's that they are the reason that the world around them changes.
Zack Carter:Right? Superman doesn't have a huge character arc. The world changes around Superman because of his goodness. Right? Same with Captain America.
Zack Carter:Captain America is a very bland character. So what makes his stories interesting is that he's got good values and he changes the world around him. And so to not to get too ahead of ourselves, but a person who's secure can help people who are avoidant or who are anxious. Right? He can they can pull them to the center.
Zack Carter:Right? Okay. Any thoughts, Mark, on secure?
Mark Odland:It makes a lot of sense. I mean, I'm just thinking it's a good reminder for us as coaches and counselors and therapists, right, to be like, okay, we need to continue to deepen and to kinda center in our secure our security, our our attachments, our our you know, doing work work on ourselves so that we in the process can can come alongside people and kind of help pull them into that center through the process. Right? And I know we weren't really talking about the the coaching or the counseling relationship, but I think that probably applies too.
Zack Carter:Yeah. A 100%. A 100%. Because it's a a stable foundation. They can show up and they know their counselor is not going to avoid them.
Zack Carter:They know the counselor is not gonna have like, try to get their needs met. Like someone who would be anxious. Right? It's a stable foundation. It's secure.
Zack Carter:I can show up and they're gonna be there for me emotionally. They're gonna be there for me spiritually. They're gonna be there for me mentally. Right? So what are some characteristics of the anxious attachment?
Zack Carter:So the anxious attachment tends to have a negative view of their self, but a positive view of others. Right? So secure is positive view of myself, positive view of others. Anxious attachment tends to have a negative view of their self and a positive view of others. We've already said they're often considered clingy or needy.
Zack Carter:They tend to be hyper focused on security. Right? I wanna make sure my relationship is secure and I'm afraid I'm gonna lose it at any moment. Right? They're worried their partner isn't as invested.
Zack Carter:They're all they're they're always worried. Are they gonna leave me? Are they gonna cheat on me? Those kinds of things. So if they have a fear of abandonment, they crave intimacy but are highly sensitive to mood to the moods and actions of their partner.
Zack Carter:Right? So if you when we do studies, can pick up when they do the images of like a face that's changing. They you know, they'll they'll take them into a lab and they'll show them like whatever it is, know, a ten second clip and it's like changing, you know, the face over time from like angry to happy. And they can pick out the change in mood faster than others, right? So they're highly sensitive to the changes in moods of others cause they need to be.
Zack Carter:Right? They need to understand what to their partner is make them feel better so that they won't leave them. Right? So highly sensitive to emotions. They can often, not always, but they can often ignore their partner's flaws, right?
Zack Carter:Because they can't get anyone better. So like I'm going to ignore that they have addictions or that they're abusive or that they don't treat me well because ultimately I can't do better than this. Right? They could also be the person that believes, like, when they say my partner's my better half, they actually believe it. Like, they are actually the better half.
Zack Carter:So lastly, before I throw it to you, Mark, might use for reassurance or approval. Okay? So they'll use sex to, like, pull the person in, to draw them in. Right? Whether they're single, whether they're married, like, they're gonna use sex as a tool to say, like, you seem like you're far away, so let me use sex to bring you back in.
Zack Carter:Right? Any thoughts?
Mark Odland:Yeah. I mean, makes a lot of sense. I mean, I think so many of these things just kind of illuminate for all of us that when we are trying to get our needs met relationally, emotionally, we have all sorts of strategies. And whether we're aware of them or not, it's almost like this constant pushing and pulling and negotiation. And obviously, if that gets out of whack and the relationship feels out of balance, either in a marriage or in a friendship, things can start to go off the rails.
Mark Odland:There might be a little drama here on one side, a little drama here on the other side, but there's got to be some kind of like balance or equilibrium big picture or else people start to feel used or people start to feel, right? There's these things that happen and so this is a great, I think, a great lens for us to kind of do some self examination, right? Not only to say and and and again, I think toward the end, we're going to get to like, this isn't fate. It doesn't mean that these things can't move toward healing and change but we gotta be honest about where we're at and what's shaped us and and kind of where we find ourselves now so that we can be empowered to you know, ignorance is bliss, but it doesn't help relationships, right?
Zack Carter:It doesn't. Yeah, it doesn't. Yeah, if you want to be the secure person, if you want to move to that secure relationship, it's definitely like, hey, we've got to communicate in a healthy way. We got to make sure I'm getting my needs met, you're getting your needs met. That's perfect, Mark.
Zack Carter:So if you're still trying to wrap your head around the anxious attachment, just a few examples are Marlon in Finding Nemo. Right? He has this trauma of the barracuda coming in, killing his wife and other kids. And so he wants to like, hold Nemo close. He doesn't wanna let Nemo go, don't leave.
Zack Carter:Don't leave. Right? Very overprotective. He's also, you know, using Nemo to get, like, his emotional needs met. Right?
Zack Carter:He doesn't really have a lot of friends. He's not connecting with a lot of other fish. Right? Donkey and Shrek is very anxiously attached. Right?
Zack Carter:So like Mhmm. He's oblivious. Shrek doesn't like him. Right? Shrek's more on the avoidant side.
Zack Carter:He's like, I wanna be alone. Get out of here, donkey. I get out of my house. Get out of my swamp. Right?
Zack Carter:And, like, donkey's, like, always around. Like, donkey's very clingy. Right? He's funny. He's a funny character, but he is.
Zack Carter:He's very anxiously attached. Right? And lastly, Ross in the show Friends is very anxiously attached. Right? So he was originally married.
Zack Carter:His wife leaves him and gets in a relationship with a woman, which completely destroys his self confidence. He's like, I'm so terrible that she left being with men and she's now with a woman. And, like, that really destroys his his psyche. And so now when he's trying to get with Ray Rachel, he's constantly anxious. There's at one point where Rachel is trying to, get into a career and to build her career.
Zack Carter:And she's around dudes, and he's, like, getting highly jealous. Right? So Ross is a very good example of an anxious attachment. Okay? So lastly, we're gonna move into that avoidant attachment.
Zack Carter:Okay? What are some characteristics of of the the avoidant avoidant attachment? Attachment? They tend to have a positive view of their self and a negative view of others. Right?
Zack Carter:So remember, as a baby they had to learn to be independent. Right? So Sure. The way I do things is the right way to do things. Right?
Zack Carter:I have my stuff, you have your stuff. I have my family, you have your family. I've got my friends, you got your friends. Right? We want to get close but not too close.
Zack Carter:We don't want to touch. Right? So they tend to be emotionally distant. They probably have low emotional awareness. Right?
Zack Carter:So if negative emotions start to come up, they find ways to run away from it. So I've already referenced using addictive patterns, alcohol, pornography Mhmm. Video games, TV, food, work, right? So people who are avoidant tend to be workaholics for instance, they can be, right? So they find a way to numb out their emotions and to flee from their problems using other stuff.
Zack Carter:Right? So if they've got problems at home, they're going to be working double time at work. Right? So they tend to focus on flaws of others and they're constantly looking for the perfect partner. Right?
Zack Carter:They tend to be, like I've said, highly independent. So when we say when people say, you know, the anxious is like, they're my better half. The avoidant says, I am, actually. I am the better half. Yeah.
Zack Carter:She's right. They may not say it out loud, but they believe it. They're like, no, no. And inside they're like, yeah, I actually am. Right?
Zack Carter:That's gonna be the avoidant. Right? They tend to they tend to avoid long term commitments, long term relationships, kinda like Brad we were talking about earlier, bouncing around. They're more interested in casual sex, so they're not really looking for, like, using sex to connect intimately. They're using it as a way to have fun and then move on.
Zack Carter:And so they tend to separate sex from affection. Okay? So they may want physical affection. They may be touchy, but avoid sex. And they the reverse may also be true.
Zack Carter:They may have sex, but avoid kissing or cuddling Mhmm. Or touching of any kind. Right? Because they're they're divorcing intimacy from sex. Okay?
Zack Carter:Sure. So if we're looking for examples, Seinfeld. If you've ever seen Seinfeld, it's 500 episodes of Seinfeld finding reasons why the women aren't good enough for him. And it's always something ridiculous. Have you seen the way she plays Monopoly?
Zack Carter:She eats her food weird. You know, there was a movie, I don't think it was particularly good. I don't know if it did well. Eddie Murphy, there was a movie called Boomerang back in, like, the eighties or nineties. And it was kind of the same thing where he was very Sure.
Zack Carter:In it. And I think he, like, ends up sleeping with this like beautiful woman and they're laying in bed together and he looks down at her feet and her like toes are like warped. And he's like, I can't. Right? And like anybody would objectively say like, what's wrong with you?
Zack Carter:This is a beautiful woman. She's interested in you. But he's, like, looking at the toes and he's, like, nah. I can't do it. Right?
Zack Carter:Batman is avoidant. Right? Who does who's in a relationship with Batman, Mark?
Mark Odland:Oh, that's a good question. Lots of people?
Zack Carter:So I know of two. Is Catwoman and Talia Al Catwoman, yeah. Catwoman and Talia Al Right? So if you watch Christopher Nolan's movie, the third one, he's in a relationship with both. Right?
Zack Carter:But typically in the comics, he's like, he's in it for a minute, but he's avoiding connection. Right? His parents get killed, he learns he has to be independent. Right? And so he avoids close intimate connection.
Zack Carter:Even when he has like the Robins around, there's not like a lot talk of, like, love and emotions. It's kinda, like, go do your job. Like, that's what Batman like, don't, like, don't try to hug Batman. That's a really bad move. Like, Batman doesn't wanna hug he doesn't wanna hug.
Zack Carter:Okay? Right? And so if, like, Captain America and Marvel is kind of the representation of, a secured attachment, Iron Man would be the avoidant. Right? He's dating around.
Zack Carter:He's always with different women. Right? And so, like, in the movies, the story arc is, eventually he ends up with Pepper Potts. Right? So he he becomes more secure over time, but the tendency is avoidant.
Zack Carter:Mark, throwing it to you, man.
Mark Odland:Well, I'm just really happy I heard a little bit of the bat Batman voice come up.
Zack Carter:Just a lot. I mean, it came out naturally.
Mark Odland:I'm I'm grateful for that because I was gonna put you in an awkward position to be like, could you please do a role play of like how Batman might talk to his girlfriend or something like that
Zack Carter:and Yes.
Mark Odland:So so you did it. You did it. That's a future episode. We're gonna have a a new assessment, your superhero type through the attachment lens.
Zack Carter:Oh, no.
Mark Odland:And keep you posted.
Zack Carter:Yeah. We're we're gonna work on that. We're gonna work on that. Well, Mark, you've you've hinted towards it a few times around, like, what do we do? Like, how do we solve like, if I'm in the insecure attachment, so insecure attachments is the avoidant and the anxious.
Zack Carter:How do I move closer to secure? Can we change our attachment styles? So we can, fortunately. So you and I've kind of referenced this a few times in the podcast. And so I'm gonna do a quick drawing.
Zack Carter:So forgive me everyone for my my drawings. But I'm gonna do the first drawing. It's gonna be of an avoidant person. Okay? So we've got avoidant right here.
Zack Carter:Okay? So this is me. Wait. That's avoidant. Okay.
Zack Carter:This is me. This is you. We don't touch. Right? You have your stuff.
Zack Carter:I have my stuff. You've got your family, I've got my family. We're doing this for fun. Right? We don't need to be too serious.
Zack Carter:Why do we need to overlap? Right? Why do we need to overlap?
Mark Odland:Right? And
Zack Carter:so the goal is if this person if this person starts to say like, get upset, be mad, the void is gonna be like, alright. Time to take off. Right? I was like Yep. Yep.
Zack Carter:So he's like, time to take off. Right? I was talking to my wife about it today because I still have the avoidant tendencies. Right? I'm not avoidant, but I still have the tendencies.
Zack Carter:And if she's like upset about something, I'm like, I'm a give you a minute. Like, I'm a wait. You seem like you need a minute. Right? That's very avoidant.
Zack Carter:Right? It's like, I think I had something I had to do upstairs. I'll you handle that. Right? My wife's like, I kinda need you right now.
Zack Carter:So that's the strategy of the avoidant, right? And so what do we need to do if we have those tendencies? We need to draw close to the person.
Mark Odland:Right.
Zack Carter:Physically touch her, The oxytocin is gonna start to release, right? Which is a very calming chemical, right? We're gonna say, hey, tell me about what you're feeling like. All the stuff that's so easy to do in my sessions, it can be so hard in real life, right? For sure.
Zack Carter:So the avoidant, your job is to draw closer. Right? So let's talk about the anxious person. So I'm gonna draw a quick thing for the Alright. So this is what an anxious.
Zack Carter:This is what the anxious attachment looks like right here. Boom. That's actually that's actually two circles, Mark. Anxious the anxious is like wants to be completely we're completely one. Right?
Zack Carter:These are this is our favorite movie. This is our favorite restaurant. These are our friends. This is our family. Everything is our.
Zack Carter:Right? And so Yeah. If you're anxious and you're driving your avoidant spouse, partner crazy, what do you need to do? You need to start heading in the opposite direction. Right?
Zack Carter:They might need a little bit of space. You might need to let some things go. Right? And so Sure. Like, but Zach, what do I do about my anxiety?
Zack Carter:That that's what techniques like box breathing, taking walks, you can have other people in your life as well. So you don't wanna be just be relying on one person. So call family members, call friends if you're having an issue. Right? As long as it's appropriate.
Zack Carter:Right? We don't wanna speak ill of our spouse. So if they're the problem, find a way not to throw them under the bus. Alright. Lastly, we're gonna have secure.
Zack Carter:What does that look like? Secure. Alright. Secure is gonna look like this. Almost there.
Zack Carter:Boom. There we go. Alright. So this is secure. Right?
Zack Carter:So we're overlapping. Okay? So I've got I've got my interests, you got your interests. I've got my favorite movies, you got your favorite movies. But we also have movies we like together.
Zack Carter:We got restaurants we both like. If you're hurting, I connect with you. If you need a little space, okay. I'll give you a little space. But, you know, I do wanna talk to you.
Zack Carter:I do wanna connect with you and make sure you're okay. Right? Mhmm. I do wanna be a secure place that, that like when life is hard, can come to me and you can talk to me about it. Right?
Zack Carter:And so that's the goal. Right? So if if you tend towards the anxious, okay, those circles are overlapping, you gotta you gotta pull out a little bit. Right? If you're avoidant, you gotta move in a little bit.
Zack Carter:Right? So what does that look like practically? Okay. So we're we're gonna kind of finish up on this thought. Five practical steps towards healing attachment.
Zack Carter:So one, wanna show genuine concern for the other person's well-being. Okay. So that's empathy. Okay. So back to the story about Brad the football player.
Zack Carter:I'm like, that Brad, I freaking hate that guy. He gets everything he wants. Right? And then you find out Brad's backstory, and you're like, dang it. Poor Brad.
Zack Carter:And so, like, that's a little bit of empathy that's injected. And so when you understand where the other person is coming from, if you know their past, if you know the difficult things that they've gone through, try to remind yourself of those things. It's like, this is why they tend towards the anxious. This is why they tend towards the avoidant. Let me let me give them a little bit of empathy.
Zack Carter:Okay? Second, we wanna stay focused on the issue at hand. We don't wanna overgeneralize. Okay? So if it's about, you know, hey, you're not helping me with the chores and you need to help me with the chores, don't make it about his mom.
Zack Carter:Right? Let's not let's not like over generalize, start attacking the in laws. This is you're exactly like your dad. It's like, no. Wait.
Mark Odland:Zach, no. Isn't isn't the goal to fight about 10 things at once?
Zack Carter:That's that's what the goal could be for some people. I don't recommend it. So Okay. We don't want that over generalized. We wanna keep it Right?
Zack Carter:To one Don't drag the past conflicts into this, right, as ammunition. And so you're like, you know, you you you know, you haven't helped me with the chores. And by the way, you know, you also told me years ago that you would build me a nice house and you've never done it. Right? It's like, what is the the house have to do with, like, me doing chores right now?
Zack Carter:Right? So don't drag past conflicts. If y'all been fighting about housing and buying nicer housing in the past, don't bring it don't bring it into this. Be willing to engage rather than shutting down. I'm talking to you, avoidance.
Zack Carter:I'm talking to myself. Right? We don't wanna shut down. We want to engage. And we want to communicate our feelings and needs clearly and respectfully.
Zack Carter:Okay? So use a lot of I statements as opposed to you statements. This is all the things you do wrong. No, it's like, hey, you know, I kind of, I feel overwhelmed when the house in the house, when the chores haven't been done. Can you please help me so that I can feel less overwhelmed?
Zack Carter:Right. That's what it's about. It's like, hey, this is how I'm feeling. These are the needs I have. Mark, any any thoughts on those?
Mark Odland:Those are yeah, that's so practical, Zach. Mean, I think that's it reminds me a little bit of kind of some of our other podcasts about kind of building good habits and taking small steps that lead to big changes over time. And so I absolutely love that. And my encouragement is to stick with it, guys. Stick with it.
Mark Odland:And if you're finding progress, keep doing it. If you do everything that Zach's telling you right now and you still feel stuck because your nervous system is still just too reactive, then that's where, you know, we talked about Zach, you're the CBT group guru and helping guys get that practical stuff in place. And I'm like the EMDR guy, right? So I'll help you dig into those deep wounds from the past and get those healed up so that maybe then you have the bandwidth to step more fully into these really practical things that Zach is advocating for. So and and you you won't know if you're the guy who can put these things into practice and and and build a habit or if you're the guy who's going to try and then it's going to feel sabotage and then you might need to do some deeper work.
Mark Odland:But the only way to to know for sure is to try. And so and that's that's the encouragement we have for you guys today. So Yeah. It's things can get better for sure.
Zack Carter:100%. So last thoughts, you know attachment styles one, they're not a diagnosis, right? It's not a mental illness, right? So a lot of people think they're mental illnesses, they're not. There are actual strategies like we talked about earlier, the fight, freeze, flee strategies, right?
Zack Carter:That are just essentially put into a relationship. So there's strategies that worked at one point and now it's just not working out, right? So try not to pathologize the other person. Right? So that's the first thing.
Zack Carter:But then also realize that this isn't a life sentence. This doesn't have to be permanent. You can work on yourself. Like I said, my wife and I, we were able to become more and more secure. Yeah, maybe I still have some of the tendencies, but I'm aware of them and I'm able to work on them.
Zack Carter:She's aware of her tendency. She's able to work on theirs, on hers. And we're able to come closer together and be more intimate, right? So hope that was helpful for everybody. Mark, do you have any closing thoughts?
Mark Odland:So good, Zach. Thank you so much. I mean, that's, you know, the way I do therapy, haven't done quite as much with the attachment styles as maybe you have. So it's definitely got me curious to learn more. I mean, even for myself, just thinking, okay, trying to step it up, be a better husband, be a better dad, be a better friend, a better boss.
Mark Odland:There's all these areas of life that this can impact. So really, really good knowledge. Yeah, and if you're out there listening and you're like, Hey, I'm gonna do this stuff, and I'd kind of like a little coaching or a little support, go to escapethecagenow.com. Zach and I are here to help. We do a free consult if you want to test the waters and and see if it's a good fit but other than that, yeah.
Mark Odland:Great talking to you all and until next time.
Zack Carter:Alright. Bye. See later.
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