Why am I so Angry? Understanding the Roots of Rage
Alright. Welcome to the Lion Counseling Podcast. I'm Mark Godland, founder of Lion Counseling and certified EMDR therapist, and this is Zach Carter, counselor and coach. Our mission is to help men obtain success, purpose, happiness, and peace in their career and their personal lives. And today's topic is on anger.
Mark Odland:Why am I so angry? Understanding the roots of rage. Alright. Welcome back to the Lion Counseling Podcast. As always, good to see you all.
Mark Odland:And, Zach, good to see you this morning.
Zack Carter:Hey. Welcome, everybody. Good to see you too.
Mark Odland:Yeah. So anger. Alright. Well, I'm excited to talk about this today with you, Zach, because I feel like we we tackle it from different angles, but but related. There's overlap in what we do.
Mark Odland:Again, me coming from more of an EMDR therapy perspective, you coming from more of a CBT perspective. And I'll just kinda maybe dive in to that that EMDR perspective. I know we've talked a lot about metaphors. Metaphors that kinda help explain how we approach things. And with EMDR, I compare it to emotional surgery.
Mark Odland:Right? Emotional surgery in the sense that if someone's coming to me looking for, like, super practical advice, like, hey, I've got a lecture to give, a talk at work. I need five tips to do this. I'm like, well, I I could do that, but it's not my sweet spot. Right?
Mark Odland:I'll be like, well, I don't know. I think we need to, dig deeply into your past, and it's not everyone's cup of tea. But, typically, when someone comes to meet with me, one of the the guys that we typically work with, a lot of times they're pretty high functioning. They're rocking in a few areas of life, but they're on the edge of burnout. Their marriage is suffering.
Mark Odland:Some something's something's starting to crack a little bit, and and they know they need a little extra support. And in my opinion, there's a huge need for both approaches. There's a need for that practical side, not only after that emotional surgery, but even in preparation before. And and I I've shared with you before, Zach, that when I work with guys who have done a lot of CBT before they find me, the EMDR seems to go so much faster because they've done the work already. They kind of have this truth.
Mark Odland:They they've they've worked on core beliefs. They've worked on, what's lies, what's truth, the relationship between thoughts and feelings. And so, it's fun to work with those guys. So I I appreciate appreciate the work you're doing there.
Zack Carter:Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Well and and so if a guy comes to you and is still struggling with anger, like like, what is he supposed
Mark Odland:to do? What do you
Zack Carter:what do you do with that?
Mark Odland:Yeah. So the way I pitch it is I'll say, you know, different therapists work differently with this. But what I what I what I'll tell them is if this stuff comes from your past, right, I mean, I'll I'll demonstrate it with a simple kind of example. I'll say, you know, if you're like most of us, you've got a few sensitive spots. Right?
Mark Odland:A few buttons that if they get pushed, those are the things that kinda set you off, and usually they're themes. Right? So for one guy, it's every time he feels controlled. That really does it. Another guy, it's every time he feels helpless.
Mark Odland:So that might be in an argument with his wife, or it might be getting cut off in traffic, and the road rage kinda flares up. Right? For someone else, it might be anything resembling criticism is that sensitive spot. And what I do with guys is I'll I'll help them really identify that feeling where it comes up in their everyday life, and that's usually why they came to therapy. But then we have some techniques where we can kind of float that feeling or that that belief back in time.
Mark Odland:And almost always, there is a trail of experiences where the seeds of that lie or that negative oversensitive response were planted. Right? And and for a lot of people, it happens it starts when they're they're a kid, and kids are resilient. They're amazing and creative, but sometimes the things that they do to kind of emotionally get through hard experience as a kid get solidified into a kind of operating system that helps them get through that and it works well enough to carry it carry it with them into adulthood until it doesn't. And so oftentimes when when people come in with anger, with guys come in come in with anger, I'll help them identify that typically that's a surface emotion and that what it's really pointing to is something else under the surface.
Mark Odland:And before they if they slow down long enough to think about it, usually, it's not going from peace to anger. It's they're they're doing okay. There's some kind of external trigger or stimulus. And I'm guessing you'll talk more about that too, Zach. And oftentimes, it's the brain saying, don't wanna feel helpless.
Mark Odland:I don't wanna feel out of control. I don't wanna feel not good enough. I don't wanna feel worthless. Fill in the blank. And then the brain says, I know how to fix that.
Mark Odland:How about a little drop of adrenaline and some some blood pressure and like, it's kinda like, would you rather feel like a scared a scared kid sitting in the corner, or would you rather feel like you got some power? Mhmm. And and so I went to a training once with, another EMDR therapist to work with veterans almost exclusively and he literally wrote a book called Why Am I So Angry or something to the effect of that or like why do I not have permission to be angry? Because it was such a common theme with people who had experienced trauma And it was kind of the sense of how did he put it? Anger does a great job of pushing people away and pushing negative emotions away.
Mark Odland:Interesting. So I thought that that that did stick with me. That did stick with me. And so, basically, you know, when I do EMDR with someone, we uncover the seeds of where anger was planted, the things that change the nervous system for that person. And then we systematically kinda target those memories and heal them, desensitize them, and heal them from a more truthful perspective so that the brain changes the way it's stored.
Mark Odland:So if a guy had a lot of experiences of helplessness, we reprocess those memories of helplessness with EMDR, and those memories no longer have an emotional charge. Now when he gets caught off in traffic, he might still be annoyed. He might be like, what a jerk, but then he can be like, deep breath. Okay. God bless that guy.
Mark Odland:Who knows what his day is like? Right. But it's almost like the nervous system is able to not go from zero to 60.
Zack Carter:Right. He's not furious. He's frustrated. Like, That's
Mark Odland:a good way to put it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's almost like it's taken, the emotional charge out of it.
Mark Odland:I I mean, I tell people, you know, EMDR is not gonna fix the stressors of everyday life. I mean, life is life. Life can be hard. But what it can do is get you to a baseline in your nervous system Mhmm. So that you can respond respond proportionally Yeah.
Mark Odland:To the situation. Not situation plus this flood of other stuff coming from this wounded place. Right?
Zack Carter:And we also don't want it to get rid of emotions completely. Like you you need those because they're like an indication that you something needs to change in some way. That's exactly right.
Mark Odland:That's yeah. That's that's exactly right. So yeah. I mean, that's that's kind of how it works. I think about it as emotional surgery.
Mark Odland:I think of you know, I I think about guys who've done the CBT with with someone like you, Zach, ahead of time. It's like awesome. I'm like, yes. This is gonna go good. Right.
Mark Odland:Maybe ten, twelve sessions of EMDR, they're gonna be in a very different place emotionally, less
Zack Carter:reactive. Right. So you're looking for the root. So, like, dig in, find the root, and that trail, like, it's not about the anger that's on the surface. It's about, like, all these things that led up to the anger.
Mark Odland:Yeah. That's right. That's right. And I and it it's not even about homework. It's not like I'm gonna give my client, like, when you feel angry, do these three steps.
Mark Odland:Right. That that's super important, but that's that's just not my my lane. Yeah. My mind's gonna be more like, yeah. Learn those three steps from Zach.
Mark Odland:Mhmm. And Mhmm. Hopefully, we can knock out some of this some of this stuff in your brain and and and calm it down in such a way where you don't have to use those three steps quite so much because you just don't have that big response anymore in your nervous system. But then, you know, life happens and people need skills too. Right?
Mark Odland:So it's like sometimes the CBT will be before EMDR, and sometimes it'll be after EMDR.
Zack Carter:Yeah. Yeah. And I feel
Mark Odland:like it just dovetails together pretty good.
Zack Carter:Yeah. They complement each other. That's so cool. Well, that was a really, really great explanation of like, hey. If you're really struggling with anger, sometimes it's in past stuff.
Zack Carter:Not always, but sometimes it's like really deep deeply ingrained past things that need to be worked through and processed in order to kinda like let go of some of that anger.
Mark Odland:Yeah. Mhmm. Yeah. I think so, Zach. And and I think the final thing I'd say about that is, sometimes people can be a little skeptical.
Mark Odland:Understandably, I I tell people, yeah, I wouldn't blame you. Be skeptical when a therapist or a counselor is trying to, explain something. There is kind of a science to it. It's not just new age fluff. It's like there's a science to what we do and it's been proven through research which is good.
Mark Odland:There's some backing. It's not just our experience as a therapist. Right. But but sometimes my clients can latch onto a basic idea. We all tend to have a core negative belief about ourselves that tends to pop up in our in our worst moments.
Mark Odland:Again, the I'm helpless. I'm out of control. I'm not good enough. I'm a failure. Fill in the blank.
Mark Odland:Right? I'm not safe. And if you can figure out what that is, then a lot of things make sense. Oh, no wonder I get so mad when my wife says that. No wonder I get so, like, so angry, so frustrated, then angry when my boss does this.
Mark Odland:It's because they're all hitting that raw nerve. They're all hitting that negative belief. And so for me, I try to uncover that. What is the negative belief? Where did it start?
Mark Odland:How can we heal it at its source? So that next time, you know, once it's healed, you get poked. It doesn't hurt as much anymore.
Zack Carter:Right? Right. The
Mark Odland:surgery has taken place. The the you know, it's healed naturally. Mhmm. There's no longer that that that that raw wound. It's been stitched up.
Mark Odland:There might be a scar there, but it's no longer sensitive to the touch. Mhmm. And so that's yeah. But I as I as I'm saying all this, I I I know, Zach, you kinda have I don't know if a program is the right word, but you kind of have a a set of ideas that a lot of your guys find helpful Yeah. Around dealing dealing with is that right?
Mark Odland:Dealing with the anger?
Zack Carter:Absolutely. Yeah. So I I usually like to start, like, biologically with, like, what is what is the what is, like, the biological purpose of anger? Right. And so in our limbic system, in the brain, we have the fight flight, freeze flee response.
Zack Carter:Fight flight, freeze, fawn is what I meant to say. Fight flight, freeze, fawn. Right? And so each of these are tied to certain emotions. Right?
Zack Carter:So flea is gonna be heavily tied to fear. Sometimes freezes as well. Freeze is also like depressive symptoms. Right? Usually stay in one place.
Zack Carter:You don't go anywhere. Right? But fight is going to be heavily tied to anger. Right? It's protection.
Zack Carter:You're protecting yourself. And so when you were talking about how anger is a good way to push people away, but also push emotions away, That's so well said and really helped me to kind of conceptualize that. When I talk to clients about anger, I kind of talk to them about it in the same way that I talk about triggers for addictions, right? That people say, oh, pornography is my problem or alcohol is my problem or drugs are my problem. Like, that's a problem, but that's actually secondarily.
Zack Carter:You got all these things going on in your life. You hate your job. You're divorced. Your kids don't speak to you. Whatever it is.
Zack Carter:And then here's this thing that comes in and says, Hey, I'll take care of you. I'll numb you out. I think of anger kind of the same way. If anger is the fight response, it's the protective response. And so it's something is going on.
Zack Carter:You're disappointed that you didn't get that promotion. You're overwhelmed by all the problems in the family currently. You are feeling guilty around past actions you've taken. And if somebody brings it up, the anger comes and says, Don't worry, take a step back. I got you, bro.
Zack Carter:I got you, bro. And so when I'm working with clients around anger, I first wanted to start by just saying like, Hey, anger is not the main issue. The main issue is all the stuff that's not being fixed underneath the surface. So similar to you, I'm focused less on the past. So yours is like, hey, the thing underneath is like past issues, which is 100% true.
Zack Carter:But if you're looking at the present as well, it's like here are the things that are going on in your life. And the anger comes in secondarily and says, hey, I'll fix that problem for you. Right? And anger isn't inherently wrong. Anger does give us the motivation to finally say that thing to the boss like, Hey, you're going stop taking advantage of me.
Zack Carter:Or saying to the person that's being a jerk to you, Hey, you're not going to speak to me that way, right? The anger is there to help protect you but it can get out of control. So that's kind of where I start with clients. And so what do we do about this? Like how do we begin to decrease the anger?
Zack Carter:Well, like we keep talking about since cognitive behavioral therapy, CBT is my background. I'm thinking of it in terms of thoughts, emotions, behaviors. So if we start with thoughts, when you're angry, you typically go to all or nothing thinking. Is all good. This is all bad, right?
Zack Carter:I'm completely right. They're completely wrong, right? So you go to that all or nothing thinking and the brain is designed to do that. It's not a glitch in the system. It's a function of the system.
Zack Carter:If you're running away from a tiger, you're not supposed to say, oh, well, is this tiger really coming after me or is it not coming after me? Like, maybe the tiger is coming to say, like, oh, that's kind of a pretty tiger. No. There's no, like, nuance. It's I run away from the tiger, I die.
Zack Carter:It's one of two options.
Mark Odland:Right.
Zack Carter:And so those mechanisms have have moved into suburban life and city life now. And so when we're at our job, we still can go into that all or nothing thinking. So one of the things that we want to notice about our anger is like, hey, oftentimes there's nuance to what's happening. And it's not all their fault or all my fault. Right.
Zack Carter:There's nuance, right? They're not all right and I'm not all wrong or I'm not all right and they're all wrong, right? There's nuance. So that's the first place I'd start is thoughts. Emotions, we want to name it, right?
Zack Carter:So I've probably said this in other podcasts, you name it to tame it. So if you're feeling angry, you can just say that you're like, man, I'm so frustrated right now. And that doesn't make the anger completely go away, but it makes it go down a little bit. If you're at a nine out of 10, maybe go to an eight, maybe go to a seven. Right?
Zack Carter:It helps just a little bit. And maybe that's just enough to make sure that you don't yell and cuss out the boss or your wife. Right? Then lastly, thinking about behaviors. Oftentimes what I tell clients is we want to be proactive versus reactive.
Zack Carter:And so if you're not taking care of yourself, if you're stressed out, you're not taking care of that stress, if you're sad, you're not fixing the problems around that sadness, whatever it is, you're going to be more likely to get angry, right? So self care is huge. So are you exercising? Are you meditating, prayer? You know, whatever it is you do to like calm the system down.
Zack Carter:Yeah. And so if you're consistently working on that, on these things, right, physiologically slowing down your central nervous system with eating right, exercise, like I said, meditation, these kinds of things, prayer, then you're gonna keep blowing up. Right? You're gonna keep being So being proactive on the front end is gonna be huge. A lot of guys are like, once I'm angry, what am I supposed to do?
Zack Carter:It's like, I don't, why don't we work on the front end? Like, let's let's work up like, let's try to prevent the anger. Let's try to prevent the explosion ahead of time and so, that's kind of the way I would approach it as far as thoughts. Typically are all or nothing. Anger or emotions, we wanna name it to tame it, and behavior.
Zack Carter:Here's like taking care of yourself ahead of time so you're less likely to do it. Any any thoughts on that, Mark?
Mark Odland:Oh, no. That's that's so helpful, Zach. I mean, off the bat, what what you were saying about anger not being inherently wrong. I mean, I think there are a lot of guys who've not really heard that named. And I I think because the experience of anger can be a mixed bag.
Mark Odland:Like, it can it can it can get us in trouble, and it can sometimes not feel pleasant. Although, again, we've we've touched on it might feel preferable to some of those other emotions. Right? That's why it scoops, you know, swoops in and rescues us from those other negative emotions. But but there there it is.
Mark Odland:Even I let it slip out. Negative emotions. Right? It's like we categorize things as the good emotions and the bad emotions, but, really, as I I've I've heard you talk about this on other podcast too, but, like, they have survival value. I mean and and from that, you know, like, faith perspective, a lot of guys come come from that worldview.
Mark Odland:It's like, maybe that's how god wired us. Like, emotions to keep us alive, to keep us connected to people, to protect us from danger. And but if it's misfiring and we're getting angry in the wrong context where it doesn't actually protect us, it actually makes things worse, that's it's worth taking a look at. Right? It's it's worth taking a look at.
Mark Odland:And but yeah. I mean, I just really appreciate the the ways that you bring those skills and education to clients, and it's it's always fun for us to talk because I I'm like, oh, that's right. That's a good one. Like, I got could could steal that one from Zach and
Zack Carter:sprinkle that in with my I still want a few. Thanks for me as well.
Mark Odland:But but yeah. No. I mean, it's it's it's really good because oftentimes, our clients are are really just knocking out of the park in one area of their life. And they think just because they're smart and just as they're hardworking, that'll naturally translate into every domain of their life, and that's not always the case. Like, when it comes to parenting, when it comes to relationships, when it comes to emotions, if you didn't grow up with that modeled for you no one no one ever taught you, like, how how would you know?
Mark Odland:Right? So it's just it's just another area of life to master. So so, yeah, I I I I appreciate this, Zach. I mean, it makes me curious. Do you find that, like, with your the clients that you work with, there's kind of, like, a quote, unquote typical presentation of, like like, where the anger is showing up in their life, or does it is it different for everybody?
Mark Odland:Or do you see themes of of, like, why where the anger is and and what what's underneath it? Do you are you seeing some patterns?
Zack Carter:You know, off off first thought, I I I I don't notice main patterns, but I've I'll I'll talk about myself.
Mark Odland:Because Okay.
Zack Carter:If I get if I get angry, which I'm definitely not immune from, I've just learned to take a second to think a little bit more deeply. Right? And usually, I think two big ones that come up for me a lot is overwhelm. It's like a lot of stress. I feel like a lot of stuff is going on.
Zack Carter:We've got a newborn. Yes. My wife is we got a newborn. My wife is working. I'm working.
Zack Carter:So when you're, like, talking to your wife and she's trying to ask you a question and a baby's screaming at you as you're holding it, you're like, what? What? What are you what? What are you what are you trying to tell me? And it's like, what is that?
Zack Carter:Like, am I actually angry at her? No. I'm, like, overwhelmed. Yeah. She's got a lot going on.
Zack Carter:I've got a lot going on. And, you know, I think disappointment is another big one that comes up for me that, like, if I was hoping something would happen and something differently something different happened, anger steps in, says, alright, let's take care of this. Right? And so you were talking about road rage. That's fear.
Zack Carter:Right? Like, anger happens so quickly, especially in men. Like they assume anger is the first thing that they feel oftentimes. And that's not like if someone cuts you off, what's actually going on in that moment? What's actually going on is that you're afraid for your life because someone else is putting you at risk.
Zack Carter:So first you're going to feel fear and then the anger, right? Then you lay on the horn, then you drive aggressively, then you drive too close to them, right? And so if you can take a second, even if you to do it the next day or a few hours later, because it's really hard to do this in the moment, you can ask yourself like, what was going on? What do I think I was feeling? And if you need help, you can use the there's something called emotion wheel.
Zack Carter:You can Google it and pull it up and like try to pick it out, try to name the thing that was actually going on. And so oftentimes I'm like, it wasn't about the anger. It was that I was disappointed. It wasn't about the anger. It was that I was overwhelmed.
Zack Carter:And so I think overwhelm, disappointment, fear are probably three big ones for me that I noticed. Those are usually what's underneath the the anger.
Mark Odland:That's huge. Yeah. I I'm really resonating with what you're saying about the overwhelm piece too. Mhmm. Because now I'm thinking, man, how do I deal with anger?
Mark Odland:Like, I'm a therapist. I should know this. Right? But but I mean, if I'm honest with myself, think about that for me and a lot of people in my life would say, wow. You're you're so calm under pressure, Mark.
Mark Odland:Like, you're just so steady, you know, this and that. But there are definitely times when I don't feel that way. Mhmm. And I think part of it for me, I wonder, is kinda what you grew up with too. So I had a dad that was like that.
Mark Odland:He he was pretty stoic. He was he was gentle, but he was very steady. But he also, I think, probably avoided conflict a lot. Mhmm. And so when anger did flare up, I didn't hear my appearance argue much, you know, they they they shielded us from that pretty well.
Mark Odland:But like, if anger did pop up in some area of my life, it felt kind of foreign. It kind of felt extra scary because I I wasn't like I didn't have a model for like I I don't know. So it's interesting. So like there are times when I have a disagreement, you know, with with with my wife or something will come up and someone will be understandably angry. And I find myself having like this, like, this overwhelmed like, I think that you talked about the fawn response.
Mark Odland:Like, I just kinda wanna shrink a little
Zack Carter:Yeah. And I'm like, I'm not
Mark Odland:really in danger here. Like, what is happening? That's interesting. And so just recognizing those patterns, I I think I think that's big. I think that's yeah.
Mark Odland:Yeah. Mean, getting I'm in a good session here, Zach. I appreciate it.
Zack Carter:You're welcome. I'll send you the bill later on. Well, that's that's all I had today on anger. Did you have any last thoughts on your end before we started to wrap?
Mark Odland:Yeah. I mean, I think the only thing I'd say would be that, you know, if if if if someone's out there listening and that is something they're really struggling with or maybe they don't wanna admit they are, but other people have pointed it out, You know, a natural response is like, well, why don't I have a right to be angry? Like, we're not saying you don't have a right to be angry. You you very well might have a right to be angry either to because you're typically, like, you actually are being threatened emotionally or physically in some way. It might be big.
Mark Odland:It might be small. Or there might be a genuine injustice that's happening, and anger can be a response to injustice too. And so I think, you know, for the guys we work with, it's kinda like, hey. We just wanna be honest about it. Like, we're not here to judge you about it.
Mark Odland:We're but but, like, let's let's figure out if it's spilling out in your life in ways that aren't helpful. Let's try to get a handle on it. Tame it. You know? Try to tame that down.
Mark Odland:Have it be something that doesn't I don't know. What's the old it's like a quote from Rocky or something. It's like, you know you know, let it let it be fueled. Don't let it burn you up or something. Like
Zack Carter:Oh, interesting.
Mark Odland:Yeah. That's the eye of the tiger thing. I'm probably preferring that that quote. That's pretty bad. But but, yeah, there's definitely hope.
Mark Odland:And so whether, you know, you're looking some resources for self help, whether you want a little extra support, you know, through through coaching or counseling, I I think all that can be can be pretty helpful. So so, yeah, I I appreciate appreciate appreciate your time time today. And, you know, for for you guys out there listening, if you enjoyed this video, please, think about subscribing, or hitting the notification bell to be informed of future videos. And if you're looking for help, can reach out to us at escapethecagenow.com or check out the link in the description box. But, as always, great talking with you, Zach.
Zack Carter:Yeah. You too. Alright. Bye, everybody. Bye.
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