Lion Counseling Podcast

Mark Odland: 00:01

Alright. Welcome to the Lion Counseling Podcast. Our mission is to help men obtain success, purpose, happiness, and peace in their career and in their personal lives. If you're checking it out today, we're gonna talk about motivation. Motivation. So stick around and we're gonna dive in. I'm Mark Odland, founder of Lion Counseling, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and Certified EMDR Therapist. And yeah, we're just passionate about helping guys and their families to have better lives. And I'm happy to be joined by Zach Carter, fellow Lion here at Lion Counseling. Zach, why don't you tell us just a little bit about yourself and we'll kick it off.

Zack Carter: 01:09

Absolutely. Yeah, thanks. Thanks Mark. Yeah everybody, I'm Zach. I am a counselor here at Lion. I mainly practice Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. I've also got a lot of experience, I've been helping guys for a long time around the area of pornography addiction. So help guys with a lot of different issues. But that was one issue that was very a big passion of mine to help guys with.

Zack Carter: 01:32

And so if you're hearing this for the first time, thanks for joining us. And if you're looking for help, we just wanna remind you that you can go to our website or in the description in the link in the description box. And, reach out if you need some help. You're looking for some ways that we can help you obtain the things that you want in your life. Yeah, Mark, thanks for introducing me.

Mark Odland: 01:54

Yeah, my pleasure. My pleasure. So motivation. Alright. Put you on the spot here, Zach.

Zack Carter: 02:02

Please.

Mark Odland: 02:03

So let's just pretend. Just pretend that I'm a 45 year old bald white man.

Zack Carter: 02:07

I'm gonna pretend that. Okay.

Mark Odland: 02:09

You have to pretend. You have to pretend.

Zack Carter: 02:10

Okay.

Mark Odland: 02:11

No. And say say I'm pretty successful in business. You know? I'm I'm rocking it there. But my stress has been high. And I'm kinda hitting this wall. Right? I'm feeling the stress. The the marriage is suffering a little bit. I'm not coping very well. Mhmm. Mhmm. And and I'm struggling, honestly. I won't tell anyone except maybe my one buddy, but I'm I'm struggling

Zack Carter: 02:38

Yeah. To find the fire when it comes to the relationship, when it comes to the business. I feel unproductive. I feel really unproductive. I feel unmotivated. And by the way, I'm really skeptical of therapy. I'm just convinced that it's all just weak emotional stuff. Psycho mumbo jumbo. I'd rather just listen to Jocko and

Zack Carter: 03:04

Jocko Willock. Yeah. Yeah.

Mark Odland: 03:05

But okay. That's me. I'm your client.

Zack Carter: 03:07

That's you.

Mark Odland: 03:08

It's hard to pretend.

Zack Carter: 03:08

I'm glad you gave me an easy one. So thank thanks for that. Yeah. Yeah. One, sounds overwhelming. Right? Lot going on. I guess the the funny thing is is that, like you, I was also hesitant on the emotional mumbo jumbo. Even in my master's program, they would bring it up as a counselor. They're like, let's talk emotions. I'm like, do we have to?

Mark Odland: 03:32

Right.

Zack Carter: 03:33

But if you actually look at the word emotion, right, to motion, like to get into motion. Right? That's literally what emotion is. So I think if we first off, I would wanna start with motivation around, like, how do we get you into motion. Right?

Zack Carter: 03:47

And a lot of guys, I their eyes glaze over when you start talking about emotions. And I love it because it's like I'm like, alright. Let me see if I can, like, overcome the the eyes glazing over. So if we look at it biologically, what is the purpose of emotions? So if you're if you're looking at at the brain, like the bottom, we have, a display of the brain using our hand.

Zack Carter: 04:09

We've got the spinal cord. We've got the brain up here. So like down here is breathing and heart rate. And right here in the middle is like emotions. And then right here is where your thoughts are.

Zack Carter: 04:16

So if you actually look at the structure of the brain, emotions are right in the middle. They're actually more important in some ways than the thoughts themselves. And so they motivate us to get things done. If you don't believe me, if in school you happen to be a procrastinator, let's go back to the days of school. And we know we have a paper to write and we have two weeks.

Zack Carter: 04:40

It goes from two weeks to a week to five days to three days to, oh, shoot. It's the night before. What drives you to finally do that paper? Anxiety. Right?

Zack Carter: 04:51

That stress, that anxiety intensifies to the point where you can't stand it anymore and you go do the thing. Right? So if you understand things like sadness, depression tend to be focused in the past. They tend to slow you down. Right?

Zack Carter: 05:05

Slow you down. So if something bad happens to you, you slow down, stay in your home to like think through what went wrong, how can I fix it? Right? So that's depression, that's sadness. Anxiety, what is that?

Zack Carter: 05:16

It's looking to the future. Something bad is going to happen. Like if I don't get this paper done. Right? Yep.

Zack Carter: 05:21

And it speeds you up. So that's not even all the emotion, but that's just two of them. Right? And so if if you understand what their purpose is, then you tap into it to then drive you to do the thing that you need to do. So that's that's step one.

Zack Carter: 05:34

Mark, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Mark Odland: 05:36

No. That that's powerful. I mean, that's and I think you're so right on. I mean, lot of the guys that we work with, there is that understandable skepticism about the emotional world. And I think a lot of guys have been beat down as if them thinking logically or solving problems is somehow this deficit or this ab you know, this this defect that they have to fix.

Mark Odland: 05:57

And I know the beauty is we can affirm those qualities. Mhmm. But that's one side of the coin. Right? I mean, I think most of us as guys, even if we lean that direction, still think that the most beautiful things in life are like, you know, I don't know, the matter is the heart.

Mark Odland: 06:13

Right? I mean, we're working our butts off because we love our families and we love our wife, our kids, and the stuff that life is worth living for. And that's the emotional world, right? So I think the way you boil it down like that just so brilliantly is even if we think we operate on this logical level and we're not ruled by emotions, the truth is those impulses in our nervous system are firing most of the time one way or the other. And if you're not motivated by mission or purpose or love or gratitude, you're probably gonna be motivated by fear

Zack Carter: 06:54

or shame. That's big. That's big. Are emotions.

Mark Odland: 06:58

Yeah. Right. Yeah. Exactly. And it's not just this touchy feely stuff.

Mark Odland: 07:02

It's it's literally like these electrical impulses we feel in our body. And that's really important information. Right? I mean, you know, with our ancestors, I joke about this with clients, right? With our ancestors, like the one guy who, like, walked through life, you know, out of the cave to go hunting.

Mark Odland: 07:19

And he's like, I don't have emotions. I'm superior. You know, I I'm I'm above all that.

Zack Carter: 07:24

Yeah.

Mark Odland: 07:24

Then then you see the saber tooth tiger.

Zack Carter: 07:26

Yeah. It's like, dude, you need fear. You need fear right now

Mark Odland: 07:30

because it's not just fear. It's adrenaline. The pupils dilate. Right. Blood rushes to the extremities to run or fight.

Mark Odland: 07:37

Yeah. Thank God for emotion.

Zack Carter: 07:39

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark Odland: 07:40

Like literally, right? I mean, so yeah, we're not gonna try to turn our guy clients into like completely emotional wrecks and that's all we And like, no. It's okay to be a guy, but we let's be honest. We need we do need to stretch ourselves a little bit and just under master it. Mast understand it.

Mark Odland: 07:58

Oh, yeah. Master this stuff. Because why would you become an expert in your business and understand, like, how to be really good at what you do and how you help and serve the world through your, you know, products or services. Mhmm. But then this huge part of your life, these underlying currents that, like Mhmm.

Mark Odland: 08:17

Demotivate you, motivate you, make you retreat, or make you go forward. Mhmm. It's like that that's important stuff to know. And, I think the last thing I'd say is I heard I think I heard this from one of my clients once, and I'm sure he heard it from someone else. But Mhmm.

Mark Odland: 08:34

This idea that emotions make good servants Mhmm. But but horrible masters. Right? So we don't our we don't want our emotions to rule us. We we need that neocortex to be firing

Zack Carter: 08:46

Yeah.

Mark Odland: 08:46

To think logically. Mhmm. But if we suppress our emotions and pretend they're not there and don't understand them, it is gonna mess us up. And it's gonna come out sideways and it's gonna eventually catch up with us. And I think a lot of guys that we work with just put their head down.

Mark Odland: 09:04

They work hard. They grind it out and that gets them pretty far for a long time. Yeah. Until it doesn't. Yeah.

Mark Odland: 09:13

And that's when they go to you know escapethecagenow.com and they're

Zack Carter: 09:18

like, alright, you're gonna be one of those.

Mark Odland: 09:20

I don't like therapy, maybe I could maybe I could see you guys because I think you kind of get it.

Zack Carter: 09:25

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark Odland: 09:25

But I'll yeah. That's that's my initial.

Zack Carter: 09:27

That's so good. Well And if I could bounce off one thing that you said that I thought was so good that I want to highlight is the emotions being you're it's either going to be your servant or it's going be your master. Because I was so passionate about addictions and helping guys, around the field of addictions, you know, I read this big, meta analysis paper. If listening and you don't know what a meta analysis paper is, is basically you you have all these research studies that are happening all over the And so someone says, okay. I'm gonna write a paper about all the papers.

Zack Carter: 09:58

Right? And so there is, a meta analysis that was written around addiction. And so they they brought in all the best research and said, okay, here are our findings around the best research. And they said for for addictions, oftentimes people think that the addiction started like if you if you're drinking alcohol, for instance, if you struggle with alcohol and you have a craving at 7PM on a Thursday night, you're like, don't wanna drink. I don't wanna drink.

Zack Carter: 10:26

Don't wanna drink. And then you go and drink. Right? You're like, okay. That urge, that addictive pattern started Thursday night at six or seven, whatever time I said.

Zack Carter: 10:38

Yeah. But they said that's not when it started. It started Sunday when you got in a fight with your wife. And then Monday rolls around, and your boss yells at you or an employee quits. Right?

Zack Carter: 10:51

Wednesday, there's crazy traffic. Thursday, you just you just don't feel like doing anything. You're like, I I just wanna, like, curl up in a ball and not do anything. And suddenly around six or 07:00, you have the urge, and you're like, oh, it started at six or seven on Thursday. That's not when it started.

Zack Carter: 11:06

It started Sunday due to all the emotions, the stress, the anxiety, the overwhelm, all those things. Right? So love I love that. It's either gonna you're either gonna utilize the emotion or it's it's going to take you over. I've got two other thoughts on motivation, and then I'd love to hear, like, you know, since I'm so so interested in CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy, you're so interested in EMDR.

Zack Carter: 11:29

What do you think about me doing the other two points and then moving to EMDR and seeing your perspective on it?

Mark Odland: 11:33

I'd love hear. That sounds amazing, Zach. Bring it on.

Zack Carter: 11:36

Okay. So first was emotion. So if you're taking notes or if you're a note taker out there and you're you're writing this down, so where do I get motivation from? Number one, we set emotions. Number two, we have intrinsic or extrinsic motivation.

Zack Carter: 11:48

Right? It's either internal or external. Right? And so for instance, what are examples of external motivation? It can be something like, you you mentioned the Jocko Willink podcast.

Zack Carter: 11:59

Right?

Mark Odland: 12:00

Right.

Zack Carter: 12:00

So many guys love that love that show. And Jocko's gonna be like, need to work out. You need to be buff, you need to be, you know, whatever, like hardworking and all these things. And so you hear that and what that translate in cognitive behavioral therapy world is shoulds, right? We get told what we should be doing, right?

Zack Carter: 12:17

And so we have others tell us what we need to do from the outside world. And so this can be from your faith, from your religion. This can be from culture. This can be from family. So all these shoulds can come at us from the outside world.

Zack Carter: 12:30

Right? And they're not necessarily positive or negative. But external motivation isn't necessarily the best motivation for us. How do we know that? Because we say all the things we should do, but then we don't do them, right?

Zack Carter: 12:41

So how do we get motivated? Intrinsic motivation, okay. So we need to find internally what we actually care about. So something called core beliefs. Excuse me, core values is what I meant to say.

Zack Carter: 12:55

Core beliefs is another thing, core values. So finding what we actually value underneath the surface. If you go online, you type in core values. James Clear has a website where he has like a list of core values that's that's really great. So finding what you actually care about in your life, not what you should care about, but what you actually care about will help to take those values and motivate you forward.

Zack Carter: 13:16

So just as a quick example, working out can be hard for me. Like, I could sometimes just like, I just I just can't get into the gym. And I'm like, it's so frustrating. And so I figured out a long time ago that if I find a guy to go work out with, to connect with, to bond with, I'm more likely to go and work out. So what is that?

Zack Carter: 13:37

Well, have a core value of connection, right, of community. What do you know? The therapist wants to hang with people. Right? And so I find guys that I can connect with.

Zack Carter: 13:47

And so I to gain something, I get to gain connection with another person, right? And that's the thing that motivates me to go to the gym, right? And so if you're looking to get motivations, it can be a variety of things. It can be family, faith, community, achievement, right, hard work. You can have all these different core values and you use those.

Zack Carter: 14:08

You say, how can I apply this to the goal I'm setting for myself? And then that's the fuel in the engine that gets you moving. Any any thoughts on that, Mark?

Mark Odland: 14:17

No. That that's that's powerful. I mean, because I'm thinking, like, I'm one of those guys who has has a love hate relationship with with Jocko because because it's like, there's part of me this part of me as a guy just comp like, admires his mentality. But it makes me curious. I wonder if you dialed in and interviewed him, flip the roles and you were interviewing Jocko, I bet we'd uncover some core values that lead him to get up at 04:30 in the morning.

Zack Carter: 14:48

That's good. Take a

Mark Odland: 14:49

picture of that watch. Right? And so there can be

Zack Carter: 14:52

a mentality of just get it

Mark Odland: 14:54

done no matter how you feel. And that can be helpful for some people. But not everyone's wired the same way. Mhmm. Mhmm.

Mark Odland: 15:01

And so willpower is a tricky thing. I mean, you know, you ask someone to define what willpower is. Mhmm. It's one of these nebulous things. It's hard to put into words.

Mark Odland: 15:10

It's like, well, I just force myself to do it. Well Mhmm. But then, like, as you so beautifully said, like, what is the cause and effect leading up to that moment, and what are the beliefs that underlie that supposed willpower? Because a lot I mean, you need look no further than New Year's resolutions to see the effectiveness of willpower. Right?

Mark Odland: 15:31

And part of me this might be a whole different podcast. Part of you wonders if maybe the sweet spot is if you replace the shoulds with a kind of a different version of a should. It's like I want to do this because it's aligned with my purpose in life, who I want to be as a man, what I want to achieve according to my principles and values. Okay. That defines the why.

Mark Odland: 15:57

Mhmm. And then if there's some kind of, like, healthy shoulds and accountability that that overlap with that with that space Mhmm. Then it seems like maybe there's maybe there's, a back to motivation. Right? Back to our topic for today is there might be a feeling of of excitement.

Mark Odland: 16:16

There might be a feeling of purpose, of love when we imagine that the people we're taking care of or we're striving to help in life. Because if it's just a should Mhmm. Then that could be guilt and shame being the motivator undetected Yeah. Whether whether we like to admit it or not. And it can work for a while, but it doesn't seem to have that.

Mark Odland: 16:38

Well, tell me in your experience, Zach. I just I just I would wonder if it maybe doesn't have the lasting the staying power that the the core values have.

Zack Carter: 16:47

Yeah. And and I think I think that's so well said because it's it's very nuanced. Right? Because you can have we can see in the New Year's resolutions you get pumped up. You watch a video.

Zack Carter: 16:57

You know, we keep referencing Jocko Willink. If you don't know who that is, it's a guy that I believe he was a Navy SEAL. Yep. And really tough, went into The Middle East to fight in The Middle East, came back, and now he he has this big podcast on, you know, things like motivation, things like meaning and purpose. Right?

Zack Carter: 17:13

And so just in case you haven't heard of him before. And so watching a video like that is that external motivation. Yeah. Maybe it does get you in the gym for a week or maybe it does get you starting your business for a week or whatever, but does it help you to last in the long term? And that's exactly what you were talking about, Mark.

Zack Carter: 17:32

Right? So it's it's does it is is the things that you're finding to motivate you, helping you in the short term or in the medium to long term. And so if you're looking for things that are going to help you the medium to long term intrinsic motivation tends to be the way to go. I think that's awesome. Alright, point number three.

Zack Carter: 17:50

So this is my last one, then we'll turn it over to you and see like, you know, from an EMDR perspective, because I'd love to hear that you might need to tell people what EMDR stands for. Last thing I think we can often engage in is something called all or nothing thinking. It's also called black or white thinking. Right? So if it's something like working out, it's really easy to tell myself, oh, if I'm not working out for an hour, it's not really a workout.

Zack Carter: 18:15

You know? Because I have it in my head that, like, an hour is the time you're supposed to do it. Right? Well, I either need to work out every day or not work out at all. Like and and maybe logically, we know that that's not true, but emotionally and in practice it becomes true.

Zack Carter: 18:30

Like, if I can't do the full thing, it's not even worth it. Right? And so oftentimes when I'm goal setting with my clients, we actually do what I call starting stupid easy. Let's start stupid easy. Easy.

Zack Carter: 18:42

Right? So sometimes it is, hey, you know, I had one client, now that I'm thinking about it, who really wanted to work out. Right? And so we're like, okay, let's set an easy goal. Let's do thirty minutes, three days a week.

Zack Carter: 18:55

That feels easy. He's like, yeah, that's easy. Comes back the next week. Hey, did you do it? Nope.

Zack Carter: 19:00

Okay, let's make it easier. Okay, let's do two days, fifteen minutes, comes back the following week. Did you do it? Nope. Okay, let's make it really easy.

Zack Carter: 19:09

One day for five minutes comes back the next week. Did you do it? Nope. Okay. What you need to do is get your clothes on, get in the car, drive to the gym, walk into the gym, turn around, walk out of the gym.

Zack Carter: 19:26

And that was the goal. Right? And we say, what is the point of that? Does that actually work? That seems kind of dumb.

Zack Carter: 19:33

What does that actually do? Well, there's a law in physics. Right? That an object at rest stays at rest, and an object in motion stays in motion. So the difficult part is to move from at rest into motion.

Zack Carter: 19:46

Right? Yep. And so what do you know? We set this goal. This guy drives to the gym, walks in, asks himself, he had the option to work out or not.

Zack Carter: 19:55

He said, you know, I can walk on the treadmill for fifteen minutes.

Mark Odland: 19:59

Right.

Zack Carter: 20:00

What do

Mark Odland: 20:00

you know?

Zack Carter: 20:00

He he actually he actually did it. Right? So he he got an emotion. So so the last point, you know, we're talking about emotions. We're talking about intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation.

Zack Carter: 20:10

But the last thing is is that, like, sometimes we set the bar too high for ourselves. And we say, I well, I should getting back to those shoulds. We should on ourselves getting back to the should. I should be able to do this. Sometimes we can't, like we just can't.

Zack Carter: 20:22

And so for that guy, he just couldn't get into the gym and do it. And so it's like, then just the goal is just to walk into the gym. And so if you're struggling with motivation, these are these are the kinds of things, the kind of strategies that you can utilize. Did you have any thoughts on the all or nothing thinking?

Mark Odland: 20:37

I think that no. I think that's so powerful, Zach. I mean, it's that you can just sabotage our plans. And, you know, a lot of our clients too are guys with perfectionistic tendencies. And that fear of failure drives them towards success.

Mark Odland: 20:56

But it is funny, right, because you can set these lofty goals. Then instead of I tell clients sometimes who are sports fans. Like, 300 batting average is hitting three out of 10. You're in the hall of fame. If they're a baseball fan.

Mark Odland: 21:12

But if you shoot 50 from the court, it's pretty good field goal percentage for a basketball player Yeah. In the NBA.

Zack Carter: 21:19

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark Odland: 21:19

So it's this sense that if you I mean, there are these guys who, like, they're they're having success. Like you're saying, overcoming some some bad habit. And they've made it twenty nine days, and then they slip up on day 30. And the all or nothing thinking drives them down into this shame spiral. And I know you're an expert on that cycle with the guys that you've worked with, with counseling and coaching.

Mark Odland: 21:43

But that lie, that whisper in our ear, in mind is you're a failure. It's all for nothing. See, you can never keep it up. And it's just a completely different mindset when encourage or you encourage a guy and be like, dude, okay, twenty nine out of thirty days you did this? Dude, your average is off the charts.

Mark Odland: 22:06

If this can be just a bump in the road, a speed bump, and you get back on track tomorrow, dude, just keep keep putting it together. Like, keep keep moving forward. And that's, you know, sometimes where, you know, we work with all kinds of guys, all kinds of backgrounds of but but for guys who lean on their faith, you know, that can be an asset in that moment too to be like, yeah. I'm kinda messed up. Yeah.

Mark Odland: 22:32

I've got a lot of work to do. But, you know, I could also be loved. I could also be forgiven. I can also have a purpose. And so I don't have to stay in that pit.

Mark Odland: 22:43

Right? Right. I can be honest enough to see the good and the bad within within me. Mhmm. And, take an honest look at myself and then keep taking that step forward.

Mark Odland: 22:52

Right? Not not giving up and and just I guess the last thing I'd say about it is, I sometimes tell guys, you know, the truth life life itself is hard enough. It's stressful enough. Just just real things, are enough to contend with. Yeah.

Mark Odland: 23:08

And if half of our anxiety and our stress and our shame is built on half truths or downright lies, Mhmm. What a waste of what a tragedy. It's just like we only have so much time and energy and emotion to give. And if we have the courage to, you know, to get some support and to analyze that and put the, you know, the magnifying glass up to our lives and be like, wow, my beliefs are really off. Like, I tell people this is what I believe, but my behavior indicates otherwise.

Mark Odland: 23:42

And I guess I've got to heal this thing up or I've got to use this approach to kind of challenge my thinking and kind of get things back on track. So, yeah, I guess that's what what it sparked for me when you were talking.

Zack Carter: 23:55

Oh, yeah. That's so good. And, like, even even as men we were talking about earlier, like, don't wanna talk about emotions. I wanna talk about logic. So even our logic stinks.

Zack Carter: 24:04

Like, just like you said, you can go 20 like, if you feel like you're struggling with a certain activity, a certain behavior, a certain substance, and you go twenty nine days and then you have that one day off. Right? That you that maybe you made a mistake. Right? It's it's literally if you look at the batting average, it's like you're in the, like, the nine ninetieth percentile.

Zack Carter: 24:24

Like, you're you're doing good. Are you perfect? No. Like, so let's keep progressing. Let's keep getting better.

Zack Carter: 24:30

Progress over perfection. Right? So let's keep getting getting better over time. There's but oftentimes we don't engage in nuance. We engage in that all or nothing thinking.

Zack Carter: 24:38

Because I slipped up, I'm a failure. Right? And that's where the brain goes. So even if you don't wanna talk about emotions, let's talk about your logic. Oftentimes, our logic stinks too.

Zack Carter: 24:47

So I love it. That's so great. Well, Mark Wait. Wait. Zach, what what are

Mark Odland: 24:51

you trying to say? Are you saying my logic stinks?

Zack Carter: 24:54

I'm saying us other than you. Everyone else but your logic. Yes. That's what I'm saying. Everyone but your logic, really stinks.

Mark Odland: 25:02

Thanks, Zach. I appreciate that.

Zack Carter: 25:04

So, yeah. So could you Mark, could you tell us a little bit about EMDR therapy? What what is that? And how does EMDR view motivation?

Mark Odland: 25:17

Yeah. Thanks thanks, Zach. I, It's like the worst branding ever to call a new therapy like a four letter acronym. But EMDR stands for Eye Movement Desensitization Reprocessing. And at first it sounds like hocus pocus because it's like it kind of looks like hypnosis.

Mark Odland: 25:37

The eyes are moving. What's going on? But it's been around for over thirty years. It's a highly researched approach to became famous for curing PTSD. But then they started to soon realize it became effective for anxiety and depression, lots of different issues.

Mark Odland: 25:55

But the way I like to think about it is it's a therapy that gets the truth from the head to the heart. And because we all have that disconnect, right? I mean, we might know something's true, but we don't feel it in our gut, in our heart, in our bones. Like, it's hard to take it in. It could be a guy who has who's like I know logically my wife loves me.

Mark Odland: 26:18

How come I don't feel it? Yeah. And just like you talked about those addiction patterns don't start that night. They might start earlier in the day or earlier that week. Take that idea and it might have started five years ago when something, you know, something in their brain kind of flipped And even though they deal with most things well, something happened that overwhelmed the system.

Mark Odland: 26:42

Yeah. And the brain stored something in the wrong place. And it becomes a sensitive spot. It becomes one of those things that a guy wants to avoid. It becomes a experience that when they talk about it, when they think about it, they get an emotional charge, and maybe don't feel so good about themselves.

Mark Odland: 27:02

And most people, even with good childhoods and good parents, even if we're blessed to have that, typically we accumulate a handful of experiences that rise to the level of even if it's not a big T trauma, it was traumatic enough where the brain's stuck in the wrong place and it hasn't healed. And so without even knowing it, we end up living our lives doing everything possible to avoid any reminder of that thing. Mhmm. Mhmm. It could it could be something as simple as, you know, getting bullied in school, making you feel like you're worthless.

Mark Odland: 27:39

Yeah. And and then maybe you start training jujitsu like like we have. And then maybe you rock it in business. And maybe you think your life's pretty great, but deep down inside, there's something your wife says or something that happens at work and you feel like that little kid in two seconds. And you don't wanna admit it to anyone, but you feel like you're still that worthless kid.

Mark Odland: 27:59

For one guy, it's I'm worthless. For another guy, it's I'm a failure. For another guy, it's I'm not safe. For another guy, it's I'm out of control. So there's actually some cool overlap between CBT, which I know you're rocking right now, and EMDR because there's that shared focus on like what do we really believe and where do those beliefs come from?

Mark Odland: 28:20

And so I guess a long story short is EMDR is kind of like an emotional surgery. It's kind of where therapy and science meet in a way where we're like we're identifying targets. So maybe Jocca would like that. You know, it's like Maybe he would. It's a battle plan.

Mark Odland: 28:37

We create a battle plan. We figure out basically, you know, we get to know the guys first and build some trust. But eventually it's good to be able to be real, to have someone to be real with. And we identify together what is their core insecurity that's getting them stuck. That either they're re experiencing and it's painful or they don't experience because they're doing everything possible to avoid that feeling.

Mark Odland: 29:04

Yeah.

Zack Carter: 29:05

And so how how would how would EMDR apply to motivation?

Mark Odland: 29:09

Yeah. So, I mean, coming full circle, if you're someone who's struggling with a feeling of I'm worthless, for example, then there might be plenty of opportunities in life that you turn down because it feels like, oh, that doesn't feel safe. Because if I do that, people are gonna see I'm a big failure. We're not good enough. And so so they miss out.

Mark Odland: 29:34

Right? Or it could be that you have a loving wife. And for whatever reason, something about the way that you talk about hard things trips you up like it does for a lot of couples. Mhmm. And you just feel these intense emotions, and it feels like I gotta get out of here.

Mark Odland: 29:51

Like, I can't hang in this conversation because it's too overwhelming. And so like you said, someone who 90% of people would think is this stable, solid rock of a person, logical, solution focused, there there are these pockets of their life where the insecurity can sabotage their motivation. Mhmm. Right? And and and then, you know, the consequence too is sometimes this undealt with stuff just builds up, builds up, builds up.

Mark Odland: 30:22

And then it leads to this kind of numbness or compassion fatigue, like where you're not feeling like yourself because you're not feeling all your emotions. Like and so, you know, you find a way to numb out. Right? There's some of these vices, some of these habits that that's very easy to fall into. But I think a lot of it depends on the personality of the client.

Mark Odland: 30:43

Right? If a calls Lion Counseling and he says, I need some help for motivation, our scheduling coordinator is going to be like, well, are you do you wanna do some, like, emotional surgery on that on your past?

Zack Carter: 30:56

Yeah.

Mark Odland: 30:56

Or do you wanna be, like, more present, future focused? Like Yeah. You know, knocking out what, like, what are my beliefs and how do I challenge them in real time? Mhmm. There's different approaches.

Mark Odland: 31:07

And I think we're a great team in that regard because we can see both sides of it and we can also kind of build each other up and inform each other's approaches. But yeah, I mean, could go on and on for EMDR.

Zack Carter: 31:20

Yeah, sounds you know, EMDR is if it's talking about motivation, it's like looking into the past and saying, like, what's happened that's demotivating you? And it sounds kinda similar to in cognitive behavioral therapy with core beliefs. Earlier, I said core values and I got it mixed with core beliefs. Now I'm I'm saying core beliefs and I mean core beliefs, but essentially this thing that you tell yourself things like I'm unlovable or I'm worthless or unworthy. Like, a lot of us have negative beliefs that we hold on to that that can be demotivating because it starts like, you know, core beliefs are like kinda at the center and then it affects everything else.

Zack Carter: 31:59

If you believe that you're unlovable, what's the chances of you actually going and asking out this girl you're attracted to? Or what's the what's the chances of you reaching out and trying to connect with friends? If you if you think you're a failure, if you're like, that's a core belief, then, like, what are the chances that you start a business? Right? Right.

Zack Carter: 32:18

So, like, do you have, like, practical like, a practical thing you give to people around, like, okay. I'm sitting on the couch. I can't get motivated, or maybe I'm successful in this area over here, but I just can't get started on this thing over here. So I'm successful in business with my family life. I just can't bring myself to, like, hang with the family.

Zack Carter: 32:37

Like, what is the thing that you just, like, give to someone to to help them get off, you know, get off their butt and start doing the thing?

Mark Odland: 32:44

Yeah. I mean, I'd probably say schedule something with Zach.

Zack Carter: 32:50

I'll berate you until you do it. No. No. I mean,

Mark Odland: 32:54

you know, we're different. Our style's a little bit. But, I mean, I would probably I'd probably prep my client for the long haul and be like yeah we could do some practical stuff now but like we're just gonna dissect your life for the next three months and we're gonna heal those insecurities so that so that next time you do that hard thing that used to stir up that old feeling you don't feel that anymore. That instantaneous connection between the negative belief and the way it makes your body feel to make you run away or freeze or fight. Yeah, we're gonna do that surgery.

Mark Odland: 33:30

And if someone's like, I don't know if I'm up for that. It's just not my style. I kind of need I've got a presentation next week and I really need some practical skills. I'd be like okay I can get my book here. I can pull out the James Clear, Atomic Habits stuff which is so awesome.

Mark Odland: 33:47

Funny anecdote, I was at the Dave Ramsey Entre Leadership Summit last year, and I got to talk with James Clear a little bit.

Zack Carter: 33:55

Oh, cool.

Mark Odland: 33:56

And I asked him. Basically asked him, your book's so awesome on helping motivate people. Do you think we even need therapists? It was sounded kinda like afterwards I felt bad. It was kinda like a trick question because Yeah.

Mark Odland: 34:12

What's he gonna say? Like, yes. Like, we don't need any therapists or counsel.

Zack Carter: 34:17

What how did he answer?

Mark Odland: 34:20

He kinda he had to pause for a little bit.

Zack Carter: 34:24

He was like, I gotta be careful with what I say.

Mark Odland: 34:26

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he took the he he took the implicit compliment that his work is is really good. And I think he he has some original ideas that also piggybacks on CBT stuff, I think. Yeah.

Mark Odland: 34:38

A %. And but the same idea. You know, put don't don't say I'm gonna run 10 miles. Say my only goal is to put my shoes on. Yeah.

Mark Odland: 34:47

Mhmm. And and take it from there. But he basically said that he was really happy that those ideas were helpful for people and it improved their life a lot. But he was also very quick to say after he thought about it like, no, I by no means consider myself an expert at being a counselor or a therapist. Yeah, They have their place, that there's a need for that.

Mark Odland: 35:10

I wouldn't presume to think that somehow my book, you know, has banished these things as not necessary. I think, that's where the self help world and the world of therapy connect. And and I think back full circle, your idea about going to the gym. I mean, that's that's another cool model for, I think, counseling in a way. Mhmm.

Mark Odland: 35:30

This is like, you know, it's a it's a professional relationship, but it's also two guys being able to talk about real stuff and for us to encourage guys. And, you know, it might not be a physical workout at the gym, but it's kind of that emotional, strategic, know, cognitive workout. And we can kind of be a coach to help guys work through that. And maybe having that one extra caring person who's going to have a nice balance, hopefully, between a subtle kick in the butt, but also some understanding and and encouragement. That's all some guys need to just, like, unleash and, like, get the once the ball starts rolling, there's momentum.

Mark Odland: 36:11

And that that gets exciting when you see that change start happening.

Zack Carter: 36:15

That's so good. Well, think that's all I had on motivation. Anything you had to add or are you pretty happy on your end?

Mark Odland: 36:22

No. As always, Zach, great conversation. And I guess I'd only say it, you know, if you're if you're still listening to this point. Yeah I mean just know that besides all the great resources out there that are that are free and available if you are looking for someone to talk to yeah check out escapethecagenow.com or go to the link in the description box and we'd be happy to do a free free Zoom or phone chat. Just see if it's a good fit and go from there.

Zack Carter: 36:54

Let's do it. Thanks, Mark. Everybody, for listening. We'll see everybody. Bye.