Steel in the Soul: A Conversation with Stephen Mansfield
The bottom line is that we choose how we're going to remember our lives, the hardships in particular, and what we're going to do with them. Okay. I've already used my story as an example. Okay. My father was absent quite a bit.
Stephen Mansfield:A bit distant. Okay. No question. That wasn't the best. Other guys had this absolute father knows best kind of family, and I can envy that.
Stephen Mansfield:On the other hand, I was a military brat. I was moved around from assignment to assignment. I lived in Europe. I had phenomenal coaches and male models, on those military bases. I was made independent.
Stephen Mansfield:I was given certain gifts. I had an international perspective. I was bilingual. I could go on. So so which what am I gonna do?
Stephen Mansfield:Be crushed and give myself to an Oreo addiction because my father wasn't as attentive as I would have liked? Or do as you and I were doing a few moments ago and say, am the son of mighty warriors, grandson of mighty warriors. There are some bruises I'll need to get over, but what this put in me, the steel it put in my soul is what's allowing me to do what I do today. Thank god for it. And even as I say that right now, you know, the power of that in my soul.
Stephen Mansfield:God for my heritage. Thank God for my father. Thank God for my military brat mother. Thank God for that coach I had in Berlin and the coach I had in Oklahoma. You know, the this this kind of thing.
Stephen Mansfield:Thank God that I lived amongst warriors who were defending American freedom and sacrificing their lives, and I grew up with that culture. So that's my unique life. But I think every man and some guys have obviously far worse growing up there as than I
Mark Odland:did. Sure.
Stephen Mansfield:But you you choose what you're going to remember. You choose what you're going to do. You choose how you're going to live in the wake of your experience. And I think that one of the arts for men is to decide to mine the valleys. You know, there are dark times in all of our lives.
Stephen Mansfield:I want to be made better by those things.
Mark Odland:That's right.
Stephen Mansfield:And that's that I think is one of the arts we've got to be coaching in each other's lives as we live out this meaning of the band of brothers.
Mark Odland:Welcome everyone to the Lion Counseling Podcast. I'm Mark Ottland, founder of Lion Counseling and certified EMDR therapist, where our mission is to help men to break free, to heal deep and to become the Lions they were created to be. My guest today is Steven Mansfield, a New York Times bestselling author, speaker and entrepreneur whose work has inspired readers and leaders around
Mark Odland:the world.
Mark Odland:He's written celebrated books on figures like George W. Bush, Barack Obama, Abraham Lincoln, Winston Churchill, and even the Guinness brewing family. Stephen is also known for his passion for restoring noble manhood through his great man movement, which trains men all over the world to live with strength and purpose and honor. Steven's a lifelong student of history. He grew up as the son of a US army officer, spending his formative years in Berlin during the Cold War before earning advanced degrees in history, philosophy, and public policy.
Mark Odland:His groundbreaking book, the faith of George w Bush, brought him international recognition and led to a long career shaping conversations about leadership, faith, and culture. Beyond his writing, Steven's been a voice for global causes, for advocating for the Kurdish people, to mentoring world leaders, artists, and entrepreneurs through his speaking and coaching work. He and his wife, Beverly, divide their time between Nashville, Tennessee and Washington, DC. Without further ado, let's jump in. Alright.
Mark Odland:Steven Mansfield, welcome to the Lion Counseling Podcast.
Stephen Mansfield:Thank you. I've been looking forward to being with you. I appreciate what you do very much.
Mark Odland:I appreciate that. And it's so good to meet you. I mentioned, in our email that I first kind of I don't know how I I mean, I kind of knew of you, but I until the Dave Ramsey Entre Leadership Summit, that's when I kind of discovered your work and now I'm going down the rabbit hole of your audiobooks which has been pretty fun. Like it a lot. But yeah, I was really struck by your passion for men and also seeing that you're a man of faith and there's just a lot of overlap in the men that we serve and kind of the mission.
Mark Odland:You tackling it different ways. Looks like you do some coaching as well as speaking and writing books. And maybe for the guys out there who haven't heard of your work yet or haven't heard of what you do, maybe just a little bit about about your work, kind of how you became passionate about doing the work that you do, and then we can go from there.
Stephen Mansfield:Sounds great. I can do that best with a story. Alright. I was raised a son of a US army officer, lived in a very masculine, wonderful, you know, military environment. My my experience was amazing growing up, and we lived in Europe.
Stephen Mansfield:My father was special forces and military intelligence and so on. So fine life, became a Christian, went to Christian school, went on to, to serve in churches and so on. But the turning point came for me, and I'll tell the story fairly quickly. Yeah. Because I was working with the Kurds, I live half the year now in Nashville, half the year in DC.
Stephen Mansfield:And as many people will know, the Kurds began to pour into Nashville when Saddam was persecuting them. Wow. So I began to work with the Kurds, and that landed me in Damascus, Syria. Now that's before the current civil war, trying to get some paperwork straightened out so I could get on into Iraq and work with the Kurds in Iraqi Kurdistan. Okay.
Stephen Mansfield:There's the background. I I one of my friends at the time was speaker of the house, the Syrian parliament. I know this all sounds very involved, but it's not it'll get simple in a minute. He got he got disturbed that his American friend was stuck in Damascus, and so he pulled together a bunch of guys to have a party on a roof and just kind of, you know, give me some friends and celebrate a little bit, eat a little bit. So it was a badly scripted party.
Stephen Mansfield:We got up there. I don't speak Arabic. Most of them didn't speak English, and so they'd shake my hand and nod and, you know, kind of thing. It was a lot of fun. But finally, a guy who spoke English turned to me, arrived and turned to me and said, Steven, a son, do you have?
Stephen Mansfield:And I said, yes. What is his name? And I said, Jonathan. And he said, then you have a new name. Well, turns out that in Arab culture, being a father is such a honorary thing that they give the father an honorary name.
Stephen Mansfield:It's Abu, which is means father of. And the short shortened version of the son's name, well, my son's name is Jonathan. So he said, your name is Abu John. When that was announced, they began to celebrate and dance and eat and and hug me. And, we did it for hours, and finally, they shoved me out the car door back to my hotel at about two or three in the morning.
Stephen Mansfield:No. There's no routing. This is not a western party, there's no alcohol or anything, it's just a bunch of men celebrating each other. And I sat on the edge of my bed that morning, three, four in the morning and I just cried. And I, you you'll understand this.
Stephen Mansfield:I finally, later in the day realized that this was the first time in my entire life that I had ever been honored or celebrated or or blessed Mhmm. For a certain phase of my life as a man. Yeah. You know how we are in the Western world. We're not those of us who are Christians are not Jews.
Stephen Mansfield:Our Jewish friends have the bar mitzvah where they welcome the son to the Right. Son of the covenant when he's 13. Other faiths have that, but I graduated high school, gone to college, graduated college, gotten married, had a son. And at no time did any group of men ever sit down, give me wisdom, pray for me, bless me, you know, give me a sword or whatever, whatever we we do it now more, but all all that to say, I began to think about, and I was 35 at this time, I began to think about the fact that most of the men that I knew had very little fathering, no band of older men around them, largely unaffirmed, largely no wisdom passed on to the next generation. Now there were a lot of people ahead of me in this study and writing in this field.
Stephen Mansfield:Sure. I'm sure you were in fact. But for me, this was new. And so I came back to The States after that trip, began to look at the men that I knew, and and began to pay attention to what had gone wrong. And and as a as a PhD in history, I began to scan history a bit.
Stephen Mansfield:And finally, I wrote a book called Mansfield's Book of Manly Men, and it exploded. And the reason it exploded, think it was just God working, but Glenn Beck got very excited about it, got on got on the air and said, this book's gonna change America. And the book just exploded in sales. And that launched me in something I was hoping I would have a chance to work in, which is the men's movement. A good noble Christian men's movement.
Stephen Mansfield:Since then, I've written other books, Building Your Band of Brothers, Men on Fire. I speak all over the world for men. I've got an organization called Great Men Global, with a fine board of Nashville leaders. And we are rocking. You know, we're we're gonna find an app for men all over the world and and to shove content through that app.
Stephen Mansfield:And we're gonna do a international leadership conference in Nashville once a year and all kinds of things, other tactics that we have for helping men. But that's how I got into it. That's how it started. And being an author, my entree into that space is largely books. And by God's grace, those particular books have been big sellers.
Stephen Mansfield:And so I'm very grateful. Very grateful. That's that's the that's the not so short story.
Mark Odland:That's that's amazing. What a a journey and and it is interesting how those moments in our lives like you like you said having that celebrated being a father was kind of a turning point for you. I had my own version of that not quite a rite of passage but a few years ago my own father died and that was a big moment in my life and kind of led to a kind of a, I don't know, dark night of the soul if you will. Yeah. It was a pretty rough time, had to be very intentional about my healing process, but on the other side of it was birthed kind of this new ministry that was focused on men.
Mark Odland:And I'd been a therapist for many years already, but I had a pretty broad general practice doing a lot of trauma therapy. But kind of a few years ago I had just kind of had this vision of this is my little story that sounds a little woo woo you know I'm kind of a pretty rational Christian in a lot of ways but I had I kind of had this vision where I was kind of hacking my way through this jungle and came to this clearing And I looked down at this pool of water and instead of my own reflection, it was a lion staring back at me. And it was as if God was saying, this is who you are. Remember that. Right?
Mark Odland:And so it's a sense of this is who we're created to be. This who we are, this is who we're striving to become and it kind of birthed this kind of renewed focus on trying to help other men who are on the verge of burnout, kind of like I was, kind of like my dad who was a physician was in many ways probably, and to help them to hopefully catch it before it gets too bad or help them rebuild their lives after they've kind of crashed
Stephen Mansfield:right yeah
Mark Odland:so yeah I work with a lot of business owners a lot of successful guys and but something's not working right on paper. Their life looks amazing, but their marriage is falling apart. They're falling into addictions. I know you know this story too from the guys you work with.
Stephen Mansfield:Sure, sure.
Mark Odland:But I think one of the things is as an EMDR trauma therapist that I think constantly comes up and I'd love to get your thoughts on this Steven is I don't know if paradox is the right word but a tension between like I'm raised, you know, I was kind of raised up in this graduate program for therapists to learn about family systems, to learn about patterns, to learn about, you know, generational trauma, these things. And there's a truth to that, and yet at the same time personal agency is so important. The idea that helps us understand our past, but if we have been victimized, if we embrace that victim mentality, then we're just stuck, right?
Stephen Mansfield:Yes.
Mark Odland:And so I'm having these conversations with guys. It's not about throwing your parents under the bus, it's not about excuses, but it's about understanding that even good parents, even loving parents can't meet all our needs. Even in good families life still happens and we experience trauma. And so I just, I'd love to get your perspective on just that tension I guess between how our past has shaped us for better or for worse and then where we are now and kind of launching forward as men, kind of what do we do with that?
Stephen Mansfield:Yeah. I really appreciate the setup because it's such an important area. You know, I grew up again in a military family and so, there was a certain phase in my life where the idea of analyzing my my family system, so to speak Yeah. My home life growing up, was was, I'm overstating to make a point. It was like you were a traitor to the American cause.
Stephen Mansfield:Right? I mean Right. I mean, I'm in I'm in a military home, military family. My My mother's a military brat, you know, etcetera. But here's what I tell men.
Stephen Mansfield:You had a home, growing up that had some wonderful things in it. Yep. No matter how weird or abusive it might have been, you had some good things. And then you had things that were inadequate. And as a Christian, I tell people, you know, you're made for the love of God.
Stephen Mansfield:You're made for the kingdom of God. You're made for perfect. Mhmm. And you didn't get it.
Mark Odland:Right.
Stephen Mansfield:Right?
Mark Odland:Right.
Stephen Mansfield:I mean, if you and I are close friends and you know, we live down the street from each other, we're gonna be the best friends for each other we can be, but we still know that that's not, it's not perfect because we live in a fallen world and we're both fallen men. So getting men to, in a mature way, look at the good, the bad, the ugly of their upbringing, not so they can, as you say, be victims, not so that they can, you know, curl up curl up in a corner and say, my dad didn't love me perfectly, but to but to storm or, you know, declare war on the deformities, build on the good. My and and by the way, a lot of men need to understand that that, you know, because the movies and a lot of books and and media these days emphasize abusive parents. Mhmm. I didn't have abusive parents, but I did have a bit of an absentee father.
Stephen Mansfield:Now now he was he was absentee because he was fighting the Vietnam War, and he was in Korea, and he was on maneuvers, and he was probably, although this will never be declassified, sneaking into Russia in the, you know, etcetera, the as the g two in Berlin and so on. So I it's not like I can I can say he was off playing golf and ignoring me, but that that doesn't change the tracks in your soul? Your father's not around. And so I go out in the world a little less prepared than I should be. I I had to have a friend in college teach me how to shave, with a straight razor.
Stephen Mansfield:I used electric, of course. That's easy. So the point is not poor Steven. The point is, hey. As we grow up, as we get strong, as we get other men around us saying, hey.
Stephen Mansfield:Glad for the good you have. Let's look at what you didn't have, and then let's fix it. Let's make it better. Let's be aware of it. Let's go forward.
Stephen Mansfield:You used, if I may rant on just for a moment, you used the word agency. Well, again, I don't mean to make too much of my military brat background, but my wife is an amazing artist and she will walk into a room and change everything to make it more beautiful and comfortable. I am a military brat, when you're a military brat, don't even, you don't your parents don't go with you and and and choose among 15 different houses. Colonel, here's your house on post. This is where you're living.
Stephen Mansfield:Enjoy. You take the house they hand you. You take the bedroom you're assigned. You're not painting it. You're not remodeling it.
Stephen Mansfield:You're not in other words, the sense of being able to remodel the world for you is not there. And that actually, in rather small and humorous way as I went through life, it kind of hindered me. Yeah. And that I didn't look at things going on around me and go, hey, we can change this. I'm going to run for office.
Stephen Mansfield:I'm going to bust out of this box. I'm going to go after this. I'm going to fix the no. You take what you're assigned.
Mark Odland:Right.
Stephen Mansfield:In fact, Bev sometimes, my wife, sometimes teases me and says, look, I'm asking you what you want for dinner. Surely, you can exercise enough of your own will and preference to tell me what you want for dinner. But, again, I'm I'm not abused, but there's a sense in which you have the agency taken from you. And certain of our experiences as men growing up do that same thing. I I can't choose.
Stephen Mansfield:I can't declare myself. I can't I can't own the space. I can't be the man I'm called to be because circums and that I I think that, what you do essentially, very much important in getting them to reclaim their agency, but also the healing that God wants to affect in our souls causes us to own up to who we are as men and and be what we're called to be in our circumstances.
Mark Odland:That that's beautiful. Yeah. I mean, when you were you were saying that, Steven, it it just made me think I think an old religion professor once put it this way. It When we think about freedom, it's not just freedom from, right? Freedom from obligation, freedom from duty, it's freedom for, right?
Mark Odland:It's freedom for the service of other, freedom for a greater mission. So yeah and also on a humorous note I can resonate with how our wives complement and balance each other out, It's like it's so good it's so good that we have someone to be in the trenches with and go through life with like that. And yeah.
Stephen Mansfield:Okay. And if I can say this real quickly, when I was leading early in my leadership life, I've had a pretty oversized leadership life, but early in my life, I didn't assert myself. I wouldn't even declare a personal preference in some cases. I wasn't insecure, but I just thought, well, serving me is not the issue. Finally, my number two in that organization came to me and said, you know, people are feeling insecure because you're not saying I want this, I want this, I want Please have that done by Friday.
Stephen Mansfield:In other words, your sense of direction, your ownership of the vision, your sense of command, and he meant that in a light and kind way, is what gives us all our sense of mission and purpose here. So if you're going, Oh, that's okay. You don't have to do that. Oh, get it done whenever you can. That's fine.
Stephen Mansfield:If you're always trying to be Mr. Nice Guy, you're sending ripples of insecurity through this organization. Well, men can do exactly the same in their family, exactly the same in their companies, exactly the same to their own soul, to their band of brothers. And so that was a really good lesson for me. Listen, step up.
Stephen Mansfield:Own the vision. Own who you are. Give us instructions. We're all standing around waiting to know who we are by virtue of how you align what we're meant to do. And a man has to do that with his with himself and his own soul first.
Mark Odland:Yeah. Definitely. Definitely. I mean, I was recently listening to your Men on Fire book and there's a part in your book where you talked about heritage.
Stephen Mansfield:Yes.
Mark Odland:And being able to yes, of course, it's a checkered past. Of course, there's good and bad in our history and our ancestors, but we long to latch to on to the good and the noble and the things that are worth admiring and to know that I don't know how you put it very poetically, but it was is a line about kind of almost like it's surging through us, it's flowing through our blood, our veins, and that's part of us and that's part of identity, not only as a child of God but from this like incredible heritage that we come from. That's an unbroken family tree of survivors.
Stephen Mansfield:Yes.
Mark Odland:Who went through unspeakable odds. I mean, I'm I'm in a process right now. My family has a Norwegian ancestry, and so I've done a lot of genealogy work. And last you know, this last summer we had a chance to actually go to Norway and visit the original Odland farm next to the ocean and to just see this touch the soil and to be there and to think about our ancestors who had the guts to sail across the ocean and come here for an unpredictable and and not guaranteed life, but, that they took the risk. And and so I think, being inspired by guys like you, Steve, I it reminds me to think about how can I be more intentional about passing these stories on, this identity on to my children because I've got two boys and two girls and my oldest boy is 14 and my youngest boy is seven so it's kind of like I've got these two different ages and they both have unique needs for how I can kind of raise them up and and to help them build that identity and and so I just I just wanted to share that that I appreciate appreciate what you've written and that's that's another kind of surge in my step as I continue to do that for my kids?
Mark Odland:So
Stephen Mansfield:Well, I appreciate you putting your finger on that topic. It's one I'm passionate about, and I talk to a lot of men who you know, I've I've got I've got friends whose fathers were their whole life were in prison. And so the the son initially is like, well, I'm the son of a murderer. I'm the son of a mafia member. Or, you know, he's kinda beaten down by it.
Stephen Mansfield:They go, hold up. Hold up. Hold up. Aren't you Italian? Aren't you from that region in Italy that did so and so?
Stephen Mansfield:Aren't you descended from so and so? You know, before long, you can just see their their inner man just you know? And in my case, you know, I can, on the one hand, be feel stupid and insecure because my father was busy and just didn't have a lot of time for me. On the other hand, I can remember the few inspirational things he said to me, and then I can remember my grandfather was temporarily paralyzed in the raid on Berlin during World War II. He served on MacArthur's staff.
Stephen Mansfield:I come from a long line of war heroes. I I come from from people who you know, my father took a stand against racism in the American military. It was decorated by the president for it. Wow. Whatever he else he wasn't, I take you know?
Stephen Mansfield:And and in my heart, I go, I this is what's in me. This this reformist, this anti racism, this heroic thing, it's in me. Now I'm I may not I may not be, you know, colonel Lee, my grandfather, or colonel Mansfield, my my father, you know, fighting in certain battles in Vietnam and so on, but that heroism lives in me. I'm gonna live out my version of it. Well, man, when I started thinking that way, it just it was add water and stir baby.
Stephen Mansfield:I mean, it just added some fuel to my soul. And I I encourage men to do that. Go get the stories. Find the old aunt who's still living. Get her to tell you the truth.
Stephen Mansfield:Yeah. Recognize who your people are. Even if everybody's passed away from your previous life, from your you know, or before you in your family line, go study your people. You know? Who were we?
Stephen Mansfield:We were Polish. Okay. Well, let's lay aside the pollock jokes, and let's find out what did the Poles do. You know? And and I've got guys calling calling me, you know, or going to lunch with me later going they're almost a little arrogant.
Stephen Mansfield:Like, I'm I'm I'm I'm Polish, man. We're awesome. And it's exciting to see even though they might have to temper it just a little bit.
Mark Odland:Yeah. Just
Stephen Mansfield:definitely. But I I love that you I love that you did that because, of course, Norway, what a what a powerful heritage. What great warriors, great inventors, ingenious, like, intrepid adventurers. I mean, you've got a lot living in your soul that you wanna live out.
Mark Odland:Yeah. I I I appreciate that. I really appreciate that. I mean, in particular, I think about my ancestor Halver who came over on the ship from Norway. And as a business owner, as an entrepreneur, I identify with that kind of adventure spirit.
Mark Odland:And and so, I think there's a lot to be said for that. And, you know, it strikes me too as you're talking about these things, Steven, that there's some themes that are maybe universal, maybe across cultures for us as men, and maybe even transcend time in some ways that that that kind of stretch back. And yet there's also kind of this unique culture we're living in now. And you know the joke is, right, everyone thinks that they live in the worst time and it was the good old days back here, and how much of that's true or not is an interesting conversation, right? And so I guess as you kind of think about these universal themes, but also think about kind of this unique cultural moment that we're in where there's something really good about wanting to belong to a tribe and yet our tribalism is also seemingly kind of tearing us apart in some ways in our culture.
Mark Odland:And I'd love to just hear your thoughts on being a man in 2025. What does that mean? What do we do with all the craziness around us and the never ending stream of negativity on our on our feeds and and and where we situate ourselves in a particular family, in a particular community, trying to live out our values, live out our faith?
Stephen Mansfield:Yeah. I love the question. You know, I strongly believe as a historian Okay. That these are not the worst of times. These are not terrible times.
Stephen Mansfield:There are challenges in every age, but we are living in glorious times. However, we are not living in times that hand us manhood, that hand us masculinity in a complete form. So we have to be intentional about it. The average man in the Western world, you know, relationships with other men are easy when he's in high school and college and maybe the military, early career. Then he gets married, he buys a house, and he's got kids, and he's got a job and obligations and all that kind of stuff.
Stephen Mansfield:And before long, the only friends he has are rust friends. The rust friend is the guy who was in your marriage, but you haven't talked to him I'm sorry, in your wedding, but you haven't talked to him in seven years, So I teach men, and by the way, a little booklet, I'm not trying to sell books, but I'm building your band of brothers. I think it's about four or five bucks. But I I talk a lot about how men need to be intentional in building a band of brothers around them. And this is a group of guys who have a lot of fun together, but inspire and coach each other to excellence as as men.
Stephen Mansfield:And I, as a historian, I often ask people, well, when would you have liked to have lived? And the answers I get, quite frankly, are fairly ridiculous. I mean, had one woman say, I'd like to have lived in 1918. We had just finished World War I. We were victorious.
Stephen Mansfield:I said, really? Well, the Spanish flu was decimating millions of people worldwide. There was an economic depression that was about to happen. I wasn't harsh. But my point is, and I've done this many, many times and many different heard many different answers, anybody who names any time, any previous period in history as being the ideal time in which they would have liked to have lived was just silly.
Stephen Mansfield:Yeah. Because there were always challenges, there were always threats, there were always plagues, there were always wars, there were always criminal things. I had a beloved black friend of mine once say, you know, I'm thinking the nineteen fifties might have been great. Really? When the Klan, I mean, you people of your skin color, is one of my dearest friends, were being hung.
Stephen Mansfield:You know? So I mean, there's not a perfect time. My point in all that is we, one of the arts of manhood is making, drawing good out of the times in which you live.
Mark Odland:Right.
Stephen Mansfield:If you live today, are living in the top 1% of everybody in human history, economically. We got we got a little box in our pockets that's got more computing power than what put men on the men initial on the moon Wow. Initially. I could go on and on and on. You know?
Stephen Mansfield:I mean, you and I wouldn't consider ourselves Bill Gates in terms of prosperity and wealth, but we we are stunningly wealthy. Yeah. Given, you know, what's what's happened in history, neither one of us is worried about the cops kicking in our door and arresting us for being Christians. I could go on and on and on. But we could live agonizingly, deformingly, lonely, friendless lives.
Stephen Mansfield:And so that's why I think we've got to be intentional about building a band of brothers. You know very well, I'm sure you know the surveys, that the average the surveys today show that the average man does not have a best friend. He does not have somebody who, he would trust to go to his house at three in the morning when he's out of town on a business trip, and the wife's had a dog run away or the pipes broke or whatever, she's flitting around in her nightie. Who do you trust to go help and to go take care of that with character? Who do you trust to get your son out of jail when he's been picked up for speeding or whatever and you're out of town on a business trip?
Stephen Mansfield:Who do you trust to him? The average man has no answer for that. He has no best friend, he has nobody close. So my point is, yeah, need to understand first of all the great gift that our times are to us despite all the blowups. And by the way, everybody needs to look in the mirror once in a while and say this too shall pass.
Stephen Mansfield:Again, I keep citing the fact that I'm a historian, not to give you my resume, but to say, I've watched these things time and time and time again. They last for a short while. Presidential administration, certain cultural trends, certain deformities in culture, they will pass. Uh-huh. In the meantime, what kind of man are you becoming?
Stephen Mansfield:How are you challenging the times? How are you challenging yourself? How are you being intentional about being the best man you can be? It's not going to happen automatically. Generation or two ago, two hundred years ago, you had men who grew up in tribes and grew up with tight families and the lore of manhood was passed on to the next generation because it was essential for survival.
Stephen Mansfield:But now that's not true. And so you've got to be intentional. So that's the message I try to get out to men is, look, the times are awesome, but they're good. But you can be just as deformed now as any other period in history if you aren't intentional about building abandoned brothers and becoming the man you're called to be.
Mark Odland:Wow. That's that's so that's so interesting, Steven. I I and it's it's you know, the word deformed doesn't come up a lot in our vocabulary, so I'm struck when you say it. And it it actually reminds me a little bit about the founder of this EMDR therapy that I do for PTSD and trauma is her conceptualization for how kind of a cause a cause of why we have so much dysfunction is because our memories become maladaptively stored, which is kind of another synonym for deformity, I guess, in a way. And so we kind of have these pockets of experience that we accumulate throughout our lives, some of them painful and some of them good.
Mark Odland:And and then our brains look for associations, right? They look for patterns, they look for similarities, they look for how to seek pleasure and avoid pain, and if your deepest pain is something like I'm unsafe or I'm a loser or I'm helpless, then your brain is gonna scan your present for anything like that. You're gonna avoid it like the plague unless you have the courage to see what's happening and inoculate yourself against it, kind of like they do for in exposure therapy, right, for phobias or or with EMDR therapy where we're desensitizing these painful experiences. And so I talk with guys a lot about how it's not a matter of if there'll be pain in life, it's whether you sit back and just let it swallow you and let it happen to you, or whether or not you embrace some of it on your own terms strategically with intention. And so I think because I think sometimes we do have this illusion that if I can just kind of thread the needle just the right way and pursue comfort, I can kind of get by with this good life, but it doesn't seem to work.
Mark Odland:It seems to catch up with us and
Stephen Mansfield:Well as you know that's just medicating. That's just medicating. Yeah.
Mark Odland:Right.
Stephen Mansfield:I joke that I have a low grade addiction to Oreos. So if all I'm doing is sitting in my living room eating Oreos by the bag full and trying to insulate myself from the world, I like the kind of crass phrase of pulling the diamonds from the dunghill. The bottom line is that we choose how we're going to remember our lives, the hardships in particular, and what we're going to do with them. Okay? I've I've already used my story as an example.
Stephen Mansfield:Okay. My father was absent quite a bit, a bit distant. Okay. No question. That wasn't the best.
Stephen Mansfield:Other guys had this absolute father knows best kind of family, and I can envy that. On the other hand, I was a military brat. I was moved around from assignment to assignment. I lived in Europe. I had phenomenal coaches and male models, on those military bases.
Stephen Mansfield:I was made independent. I was given certain gifts. I had an international perspective. I was bilingual. I could go on.
Stephen Mansfield:So so which what am I gonna do? Be crushed and give myself to an Oreo addiction because my father wasn't as attentive as I would have liked? Or do as you and I were doing a few moments ago and say, I am the son of mighty warriors, grandson of mighty warriors. There are some bruises I'll need to get over, but what this put in me, the steel it put in my soul is what's allowing me to do what I do today. Thank God for it.
Stephen Mansfield:And even as I say that right now, you know, the power of that in my soul. For Thank my heritage. Thank God for my father. Thank God for my military brat mother. Thank God for that coach I had in Berlin and the coach I had in Oklahoma.
Stephen Mansfield:You know, the this this kind of thing. Thank God that I lived amongst warriors who were defending American freedom and sacrificing their lives, and I grew up with that culture. So that's my unique life. But I think every man and some guys have obviously far worse growing up there is than I
Mark Odland:did. Sure.
Stephen Mansfield:But you choose what you're going to remember. You choose what you're going to do. You choose how you're going to live in the wake of your experience. And I think that one of the arts for men is to decide to mine the valleys. You know, there are dark times in all of our lives.
Stephen Mansfield:I wanna be made better by those things.
Mark Odland:That's right.
Stephen Mansfield:That I think is one of the arts we've gotta be coaching in each other's lives as we live out this meaning of the band of brothers.
Mark Odland:I love it. I mean, do do you think, Steven, that it's it's kind of the because because our culture is at a place where survival isn't as difficult for most people, That is that why we you think we've lost the rituals that are embedded in survival? That's why we've lost these rites of passage and that that's kind of the diagnosis of what how things have gotten off track?
Stephen Mansfield:Yeah I do I do think life has become very easy, and ease and comfort are the enemies of a man's soul. There's no question about it. I mean, thank god for every comfortable chair you've got and every whatever you drink, you know, cocktails or wine. I mean, I'm glad for you to have all the comfort and fireplaces and all that. But we have to realize if all we have is comfort, then we're just gonna be soft.
Stephen Mansfield:And I think that in time, we've got to realize that, men are made, with unique wiring. And the sooner we can learn what that wiring is and give ourselves strongly to enhancing it, the better off that that we are. And so I I I do think that we need to realize the value of our times, the good of our times, the gifts of our times, but also realize that there are cancers coming from our times that can erode a man's souls and that's that's why I think we've got to be on the on the on the messages that you and I are talking about now.
Mark Odland:Yeah. Definitely. Definitely. Well, with all that you're doing, you've got a lot on your plate. Is there a project you're working on or that you've recently completed that you're feeling excited about?
Mark Odland:Mean I know it's a it's a funny thing right as an author you edit your own stuff to death until you can barely stand it and then it's like am I still passionate? Mean yeah you're passionate about it but it's you know it's it's different. But I guess I just wanted to open it up for whatever's on on your heart, Steven, that you'd like to share with our audience. Something you're excited about, something you think my men that are listening to this might benefit from. Just kinda wanted to give you the floor.
Stephen Mansfield:Tell you what excites me right now about our generation is what's happening with young men. Now I know on the one hand, you look at the stats, you know, and certain recent generations have got some deformities, no question, and concerned about them too much on their phones. You know, can't pass the entrance exam and physical requirements to get in the military, all that kind of stuff that we talk about. But the fact is that young men statistically are turning to faith, asking questions about noble manhood, and are hungry for mentoring from older men in a way that some of their slightly older brothers were not. And it's pretty stunning.
Stephen Mansfield:And when you combine that with an emphasis on Christianity, I mean, the Catholic church, for example, and I'm not Catholic, but the Catholic church is reporting an unprecedented interest in it by young men, the Orthodox church. I hang a lot with reformed Presbyterians and conservative Presbyterians, and they're reporting, you can't believe the young men flooding into our churches wanting to be part of our men's groups. Just last week, for example, when we're recording this, I'm not sure when it's going to air, but just last week when we're recording this, there was a gathering of worship and Christian commitment gathering at the University of Tennessee of 8,000 students. So this is on a campus of 30,000, so that's slightly north of a quarter of those students. The vast majority, men.
Stephen Mansfield:The vast majority, male students. So I sometimes like to challenge the prevailing conclusions about our generation by saying, man, hey, let's wake up. Good things are happening. This is not the worst of all times to live. This is not a terrible time to be alive.
Stephen Mansfield:You know, that famous line from Doctor. Chivago. Is a great time to be alive. And for those of us who are in the quote unquote men's space like you and me, where we're coaching men, advising men, writing for men, trying to call men to their best, This is a magnificent time to be alive. And I think we're going to see in in my lifetime, I'm older than you, but I think in the next couple of decades, I'm going to stay in really good shape and make sure I live live through all that.
Stephen Mansfield:In next the couple of decades, we're going to see a massive men's movement in our generation that is rooted in servanthood, rooted in connection to God, and that is making a difference in our society, healing families, calling out children. So that's what I'd want to leave your listeners with is that whatever your personal struggles, and we'll help you with that in every way we can with our books and our coaching and our podcasts and all the things that you're doing, Mark. But at the same time, just what is happening as a cultural trend is actually a little bit ahead of us, and we're gonna have to hurry up and catch up because great things are happening when it comes to manhood in the Western world.
Mark Odland:What a what a hopeful empowering word, to leave us leave us with, Steven. And, you know, I know the word anointed is a strong word in a biblical world a word, but I I just I feel that God is working for your life. And
Stephen Mansfield:Thank you.
Mark Odland:Thank you. Just really appreciate making this connection and appreciate your willingness to grace our podcast. It'd be a blessing to the guys who are listening. And and how yeah. I'm just how can people find you?
Mark Odland:What's what's the best way for them to get ahold of your if they if they're interested in in in coaching or books or your your your your talks? How can people find you, Steven?
Stephen Mansfield:Sure. If they wanna know more about me, it's just stevenmansfield.tv. Very easy to remember. My name is spelled with a p h. The only way, by the way, that ought to be legal.
Stephen Mansfield:Stevenmansfield.tv. And then our our organization is Great Man Global, but the website is greatman.tv. We have both a Great Man podcast and a Steven Mansfield podcast. My Steven Mansfield podcast is more about current events and public policy and Christian Christian work in the world. And the the manhood podcast is greatman.tv.
Stephen Mansfield:So that's how they can find me. And and then I've written about 27 books, more than I ought to have, and all of them are on Amazon, and you can look those up. And but the but the main one you wanna start with for me, other than Building Your Band of Brothers, which is a little booklet, is Mansfield's Book of Manly Men. That's the big the big tome. They got a lot so much attention, some years ago, and it's continuing to to soar.
Mark Odland:Beautiful. Beautiful. Well, and to close, perhaps the most important question of all is with the borderline Oreo addiction.
Stephen Mansfield:Yes.
Mark Odland:Do you, how do you deal with the Oreos? I mean is it screw off the the top and eat the center or what what is the appropriate manly First
Stephen Mansfield:first of all, any adulteration of the original Oreo, covering it with icing, making the icing red is a communist plot to take over America. And second of all, I don't I think we ought ought to just leave the dang Oreo alone and pop it into our mouths one whole cookie at a time. Wow. No screwing stuff off. No scraping the icing off with icing.
Stephen Mansfield:I think all of that is a carnal and deep sin that offends God. And so just eat like a man and whork down, baby.
Mark Odland:I like that. I think that's a good manly challenge to me because I've been known to hold it in the milk to the point where it gets so sweaty. No. No. That that it's like touch and go.
Mark Odland:I could lose that whole thing.
Stephen Mansfield:You've gotta repent. You gotta repent. There's no question about it.
Mark Odland:I'll do that. I'll do that.
Stephen Mansfield:Hey, man. It's so good to be with you. Thank you so much, man. This has been great.
Mark Odland:My pleasure. It's been great talking with you, and, blessings on the rest of your week. Thanks, Steven.
Stephen Mansfield:Thank you very much. Have a great time.
Mark Odland:Alright. Bye. Well, thanks for listening today. What a blessing to hear the wisdom that that Steven had to share. If you have that stirring in your heart and you're wondering if receiving some coaching or some counseling could be the next step in your healing journey, I'm always available for a free consultation.
Mark Odland:Just reach out at escapethecagenow.com. And as always, if you're, enjoying this content, you can help us spread the word to other guys by hitting that subscribe button, liking, throwing a comment down below about what you thought of the episode. All those things help the algorithm and help us, get the word out, to to help more people. So thanks in advance for for doing that. Until next time.
Mark Odland:God bless, and, talk to you later. Bye.
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