Lion Counseling Podcast

Mark Odland: 00:01

Alright. Welcome everyone to the Lion Counseling Podcast. Our mission is to help men, obtain success, purpose, happiness, and peace in their career and in their personal lives. Today we're going to be talking about success, how to define it, and what prevents us from attaining it.

Mark Odland: 00:44

And if any of you out there are looking for help, some extra support in your life, feel free to reach out to us at escapethecagenow.com or, look for the link in the description box. Alright. So, success. This is my, partner in crime, Zach Carter. Zach, could you, maybe just introduce yourself a little bit?

Mark Odland: 01:04

Again, I'm Mark Odland, founder of Lion Counseling, licensed marriage and family therapist, certified EMDR therapist, and just super excited to be working with Zach and tag teaming on helping guys across the country to find success and to find healing in their lives. So Zach, floor is yours.

Zack Carter: 01:22

Hey everybody. Thanks Mark. Yeah, I'm Zach. I'm Zach Carter. I am a counselor and a coach.

Zack Carter: 01:29

And yeah, primarily focus on helping guys achieve their full potential. Right? Like, we're we're talking like Mark was talking about that our company does. And so thanks for queuing up the the topic of success. So how how do we define success?

Zack Carter: 01:44

So if if I have a client that's that's come to me and they're like, I wanna be more successful. The first place I'm gonna go, Mark, I don't know about you, but the first place I go is like, what does that mean? Right? Right. Like, what is successful?

Zack Carter: 01:59

And last time, last video, if you guys haven't caught it, we we talked about core values. Right? And so I might start there. Like, what are the things that you deeply care about? Like, what's the lens that you're looking through to define your life, whether it's career, family, whatever?

Zack Carter: 02:19

And so core values can look like connection with family, community, meaningful career, faith. Right? So it could be a bunch of different things. So if you're out there and you're like, I wanna be successful, I don't really have a definition, highly recommend you go and look up core values and see, okay, what are my core values first? After that, we wanna specify what is the actual goal?

Zack Carter: 02:46

What does success actually look like? And I think in our video last week as well, we talked about SMART. And so one of the biggest things in SMART goals, setting SMART goals, is specifying. Right? So is success making $150,000 a year?

Zack Carter: 03:02

Is success a work life balance of working no more than forty hours a week while still not being in debt? Right? So like you need to specify exactly what success looks like. Because as humans we have a tendency to move the goalposts on ourselves. Right?

Zack Carter: 03:19

So you wanna make sure you specify exactly what that looks like in your life so that you can actually know what is the goal? What we actually aiming Mark, I'm curious. What are what are

Mark Odland: 03:29

your thoughts? No. I think that that you hit it right on, Zach. I mean, interesting. Even prepping for this podcast, it's like it's a great soul searching kind of question.

Mark Odland: 03:36

Right? Mhmm. Even for us guys who who have thought about this deeply and and achieved some measure of success in this life, I think one thing that's standing out to me is that question of is is success a destination, or is it a process?

Zack Carter: 03:52

Mhmm. Mhmm.

Mark Odland: 03:53

Because that that you talk about moving the goalpost. I mean, that's something where it becomes kind of an insidious thing. Like, it's it's noble to pursue success, to make a difference in this world, to provide for our families, to make the world a better place. And yet so many of the guys we work with, no matter how successful on paper they are, they have this nagging feeling of I'm not good enough. I'm gonna fail.

Mark Odland: 04:16

And I guess maybe a last thought that I kick back over to you, Zach, is Mhmm. On one hand, someone might have they might be rocking it in, like, two or three areas where they feel successful. But then many of the guys who come to us, there's at least one or two areas where they're feeling less successful. So on the outside, maybe their career is going well, but their home life is suffering. Or maybe the home life is going well, but they're just not where they thought they'd be.

Mark Odland: 04:40

They look back on their life and they're like, I just don't feel like I'm where I'm supposed to be. I'm getting nervous about, the timing of of my career trajectory or my financial stability, things like that. Right. So, yeah, I think those are the things that that come to mind for me is, like, is it a destination or is it a process? And then kind of, these different areas of success and and it's hard to kinda hit the bull's eye on all of

Zack Carter: 05:05

them simultaneously. Right? Oh, yeah. A %. Well, so so then, you know, what the the question then, if if we figured out what is the thing I want?

Zack Carter: 05:17

So you're saying like, I'm really successful in my career. I feel successful in my career, but I'm not married. Like, I'm 40 and I'm not Or just

Mark Odland: 05:25

like

Zack Carter: 05:25

you said, my family life feels like it's pretty good, but I'm still spending a lot of time playing video games or whatever. I can't move forward in my career. I haven't been able to get myself forward in that career. So what are the things that can prevent us from achieving that success, I think is the next question. So a couple of things on my end.

Zack Carter: 05:48

Like in our last video, the way I practice counseling is through something called cognitive behavioral therapy. So we're working on your thoughts, emotions, behaviors. And I think mindset, I think thought processes can really be the driving force on whether we begin to pursue that success or whether we're held back from that. There's a great book by Doctor Carol Dweck called Mindset.

Zack Carter: 06:16

And she lays out really clearly this idea of a fixed mindset versus a growth mindset. And as I read this book around fixed mindsets and growth mindsets, it really helped me to see how much that is tied to cognitive behavioral therapy and what I do with clients. And so a fixed mindset is something like, you are whatever you call yourself. For instance, I am lazy or I am smart. Right?

Zack Carter: 06:50

I am, an athlete. Right? Or I'm not an athlete or I'm not a cook, whatever it is.

Mark Odland: 06:57

Right.

Zack Carter: 06:57

And there's a there's a famous there's a famous quote. I think it was by Henry Ford who said that, if you I'm a I'm a butcher this, but if you whether you tell yourself you're able to do a thing or tell yourself you're not able to do a thing, you're correct either way. Right? And so this idea kind of permeates through this book around if you tell yourself, I'm stupid, then you're not going to pursue things like schooling. Right?

Zack Carter: 07:29

If you say, I'm an addict. Right? I work with a lot of guys in addictions. You're gonna act like an addict. Right?

Mark Odland: 07:34

Yeah.

Zack Carter: 07:35

Whereas a growth mindset says like, hey, if I make a mistake, it's an opportunity to learn. Right? And so you can continually learn throughout your life rather than being being labeled as a specific thing, whether whether that's stupidity or lazy or an addict or whatever it is that you're telling yourself. So I'll I'll kick that off to you. Do you have any any thoughts or comments on that?

Mark Odland: 07:59

Yeah. I mean, that's that's a profound insight. And and tell me if this this I'm tracking with you, Zach, from a CBT perspective. It's almost like what you believe deep down about yourself

Zack Carter: 08:13

Mhmm.

Mark Odland: 08:13

Your behaviors will naturally flow from that. Right.

Zack Carter: 08:16

Mhmm.

Mark Odland: 08:17

And so it it is interesting to think about that gut check for us as men to look ourselves in the mirror and be like, here's all the things I'm claiming that I believe about myself or about the world.

Mark Odland: 08:28

But here's what I actually tell myself, and here's how I actually act. Mhmm. And sometimes that might be a more true measure of my actual belief system, and there can be a disconnect there. Mhmm. And I would imagine that there is a way of stepping into that with men and helping them kind of illuminate that for them to see that disconnect and and to to challenge maybe distorted thoughts or beliefs that aren't aren't helpful that are or even paralyzing, like demotivating.

Mark Odland: 08:57

And I've just been it's it's been really cool on the outside to see the clients that you're working with, Zach, and Mhmm. And to see that them coming in feeling, like, discouraged down, struggling with addictive behaviors or lack of motivation, feeling unsuccessful Mhmm. And then working through this process with you and kind of checking in on them in in a few weeks or months and being like, man, you you look like a different person. This is this is really cool.

Zack Carter: 09:25

Yeah. I thanks for saying that. Yeah. I mean, it's it it so much really is driven by what we tell ourselves. And and so if you're out there and you're like, what are some things I should watch out for in my thought processes?

Zack Carter: 09:39

I think there's three big ones that can affect how we move towards success. Obviously, there's more, but here are three big ones I've seen a lot. Right? All or nothing thinking. Right?

Zack Carter: 09:49

I'm either a success or I'm a failure. Right? And when I meet with clients, you know, I think the tendency as human beings, you have someone that comes to

Zack Carter: 09:59

you is like, dude, I suck at life. Dude, I I'm just like I'm just a failure in my career. Dude, I'm stupid.

Zack Carter: 10:06

And, like, the natural inclination is we're like, no. You're not. You're not stupid. Like, that's what we wanna do. Like, we feel like as good people, we we wanna, like, like, counteract that.

Zack Carter: 10:16

That's not what I do with

Zack Carter: 10:17

with clients. I'm like, maybe you are. Let's find out. Right? Yeah.

Zack Carter: 10:23

And what we do is

Zack Carter: 10:24

we actually collect evidence. Right? So if you're saying I'm lazy, okay. Maybe you are. I don't you know yourself better than me.

Zack Carter: 10:32

Like, let's actually gather the evidence on whether or not you're lazy or not. And if you're like, yeah. I, you know, I don't have a job and I play video games all day and, you know, I I'm not, like, engaging in any nonprofit charitable serving. Right? I'm not, like, engaging any you know, I'm basically at my house all the time not doing anything.

Zack Carter: 10:53

I'd be like, alright. Well, maybe your thought has some validity. So what can we do about it? Right?

Mark Odland: 10:57

Yeah. Let's work

Zack Carter: 10:58

let's work away from that then. I yeah. Right?

Mark Odland: 11:02

That's amazing, Zach. Sorry to interrupt you. I was just gonna say, I think that that's something that's so important because although I'd like to think that we conduct our sessions with empathy and with some compassion, there's this sense that a lot of the guys we work with, they see that the therapy world is so dominated by just everything you're special just the way you are and you know through God's eyes we are special but in this world, yeah in the words of Doctor. Jordan Peterson right, you're not everything you should be and you know

Zack Carter: 11:39

deep down. And I know

Mark Odland: 11:41

we both had the privilege of meeting Mr. You know Doctor. Peterson and even though there are things we do differently than he does, I think guys who really are attracted to his work end up finding us because they want guys who are gonna yeah they're not gonna be jerks about it but they're gonna they're gonna challenge. They're gonna challenge them. You know, in your work with CBT, you're gonna you're gonna help guys face some hard truths.

Mark Odland: 12:07

And and sometimes the disconnect is, like, here are places that actually need to change in your life. You know and then that connection between the beliefs and then eventually the behaviors. I'll shut up now and back to

Mark Odland: 12:21

you Zach but I have

Mark Odland: 12:23

to smile because it feels a little countercultural in the therapy world to be like no, I'm not just gonna nod my head constantly and say everything's just fine. It's like, no, there are things that you're doing really well and we can celebrate that. And there are things that need to change. Let's be honest, that's why you're here, right? I mean,

Zack Carter: 12:43

Yeah, that's why you're here.

Mark Odland: 12:45

That's why you're here. That's you're getting coaching, you're getting counseling, getting therapy, right?

Zack Carter: 12:48

Yeah, so well said. And so with all or nothing thinking, it's the nuance. And so even if that person, let's say that person says all those things that I just said, but they're living with their mother and they help their mom with chores around the house. So in 80% of their life, they're being lazy. And then in 20% of their life, they're being they're hardworking.

Zack Carter: 13:14

Like, they're engaging at work. Like, we also wanna bring that nuance then. Right? That, hey. Sounds like the thought isn't that I'm lazy.

Zack Carter: 13:23

The thought is that in many areas of my life, I'm not working hard, but I am helping my mom around the house clean up. Right? Yep. And so that's a more nuanced thought than I'm lazy, but that's usually not what I find. Most of the time, people are harder on themselves.

Zack Carter: 13:41

So, I'm lazy was one that I used to call myself that a few years ago. And so I like went through this process of like working through the thought in a cognitive behavioral way. And when I got to the like listing out evidence on one side, it was, I'm doing a master's program. I'm doing well in that master's program. I have a job while I'm doing that master's program.

Zack Carter: 14:03

I'm helping my wife around the house. Yep. And I help at my church sometimes. And so that was all say against the laziness. But on the other end, I was like, well, I procrastinate sometimes.

Zack Carter: 14:15

And what I realized in that moment was because I had a tendency at the time to procrastinate, I called myself lazy. And so Interesting. Whatever you call yourself

Zack Carter: 14:26

Yeah. That's what you're gonna do. Right? And so then I would engage in more lazy behaviors.

Zack Carter: 14:30

But when I actually worked it out, I was like, oh my gosh. The truth is that I'm mostly hardworking, but sometimes I procrastinate. Right? And that's a very different thought than I'm lazy. Right?

Zack Carter: 14:42

Any any any thoughts on that, Mark?

Mark Odland: 14:45

No. I think that's I think that's huge because it can be very discouraging. I'm talking about, you know, back to the theme of this show, the obstacles to success. I mean Mhmm. If if people are supporting you and you're trying to psych yourself up to accomplish this task, to get out the resume, to apply for the new job, to Mhmm.

Mark Odland: 15:04

Make that investment, to, you know, what to to ask that girl on the date, you know, whatever it is. Mhmm. But deep down inside, you know or you believe I'm a loser. I'm a failure. I'm unsuccessful.

Mark Odland: 15:18

I don't have what it takes. It's self sabotage. I mean, it's it's just it's just classic. Right? Somewhere in that pattern of behavior, getting from point a to point b, that little whisper, that little lie is gonna show up.

Mark Odland: 15:32

And it might not be like an audible or or a tangible thought, but it could even be a feeling. It could be a feeling in the gut that's been been there for a long time even since childhood where that's been conditioned to say, nah. It's not worth it. Who are you kidding? Like, you're a complete failure.

Mark Odland: 15:49

Just don't even try. It's just gonna be another failure, another rejection. And so the process gets shut down before you even start. But then again, you're you're living in this world of, downright lies. Right?

Mark Odland: 16:02

Like, you're you're and and it it becomes self fulfilling. And and and if you can kinda break into that, you know, crack the armor and and expose what's underneath, it's like, okay. Maybe 60% of that's true.

Zack Carter: 16:15

Mhmm.

Mark Odland: 16:15

But, man, there's some good stuff in there. And and and a lot of times we pick up these lies as kids because, this is kind of my EMDR perspective coming out, but we pick up these lies and insecurities as kids because what do kids do? I mean, that that is what kids do. You know? Faced with the option of the world is a scary place and my parents are kinda screwed up or no.

Mark Odland: 16:38

That has to be stable. Something's wrong with me. Most kids automatically pick something's wrong with me, they carry that through their life and then they, adjust accordingly. And sometimes it paralyzes them and, they're shut down and demotivated and sometimes they actually achieve some measure of success as you know too, Zach. It's like on paper, there there are certain areas they're doing pretty well, but but the whole thing is is is trying to construct a life to try to prove the lie wrong.

Mark Odland: 17:06

That deep down inside I'm still that little failure, I'm still that kid who was bullied, I'm still that you know fill in the blank and their life feels like a house of cards just ready to collapse and so on one hand they haven't achieved all the success they want and on the other hand they haven't even taken the time to define what does success look like. That's kind of back to the beginning of our conversation is how do you define success? How would you even know if you got there? If you achieve this victory you think would be the be all end all, would you actually be able to celebrate that with your family? Would you actually feel good about yourself?

Mark Odland: 17:42

Or would it be check the box onto the next thing? I still don't feel good. Right. So I kinda threw a lot at you there, Zach, but that's

Zack Carter: 17:52

Yeah. Because that's that's so good. And that that actually what you're saying, Mark, kinda kinda leads me into the the next automatic negative thought that I do think oftentimes comes from childhood, which is labeling. So like we label ourselves. So all or nothing is I'm either 0% or 100% and labeling kind of feels similar.

Zack Carter: 18:10

Right? That like we call ourselves a thing and it's like kind of in our DNA. It's like who we are. Right? We can't change.

Zack Carter: 18:16

This is getting back to that fixed mindset with Carol Dweck that, like, this is who I am. I can't change this. Right? And, and so, you know, you can have guys out there. I'm sure there's plenty of guys listening to this that are already the world would say you are successful right now.

Zack Carter: 18:31

Definitely. Right? So we have some guys listening that are like, the world would say you're not successful. And we've got other people that the world might say you are successful, but you still don't feel like it. Right?

Zack Carter: 18:41

So I had a client I was talking to who he called himself stupid. Like, I'm I'm stupid. I'm a stupid guy. And that came from his background. Like, he had people raising him that said he said he was stupid.

Zack Carter: 18:56

Right? Right. And he carried that over.

Zack Carter: 18:59

When we did the let's let's gather evidence, the dude said when we were looking for evidence against, he's like, I was top of my class in college. I was summa cum laude. I busted out laughing because it caught me so off guard that this dude was himself stupid, and he graduated top of his class in university. How does that happen? Because we can label ourselves.

Mark Odland: 19:27

Right.

Zack Carter: 19:27

This is what you're saying is that even if you achieve a lot of success, if you still have a belief underneath the surface that you are a thing, that it doesn't matter how much success you pursue. Even if you're listening to this and you're like, okay, well, are the steps to be more and more and more and more successful? It's probably never gonna be enough for you. Right. Right?

Zack Carter: 19:48

It's never gonna be enough until you like work on that thing underneath that says, I'm a failure. Right? Wow. Any thoughts on labeling?

Mark Odland: 19:58

That yeah. That that is a profound because yeah. I mean, it seems like something about that label, it almost takes all the energy out of the room. I mean it's almost like there might be this evidence like small evidence circling around the outside but it's like nope that's my label and our brains categorize things. Right?

Mark Odland: 20:18

And I would imagine, Zach, that you're seeing clients who it's almost like the label becomes the filter for reality. Mhmm. So it it almost by definition looks to gobble up evidence to support the lie Mhmm. And and shields itself from it's almost like the good stuff can't get in. Yep.

Mark Odland: 20:40

And, yeah. And and that and that's a and that's a that's a tough thing. That's a tragic thing in life when, like, good guys, like hard working guys in a lot of cases, they can't let the good stuff in. They can't enjoy their family. They can't feel a sense of peace.

Mark Odland: 20:57

This motor underneath that's driving them to try to prove that lie wrong. I mean and I I guess I'm talking out talking, it strikes me, Zach, that, you know, it can manifest different ways. You can have the guy who has achieved some measure of success that just doesn't even believe it still. It's like so painfully obvious that, you know, like top of the class, CEO of the company, but they still can't feel peace because they don't feel successful. And then there are other guys, maybe they're starting out.

Mark Odland: 21:24

Maybe they're 25 or 30 years old and they haven't achieved the career success or the relationship success that they would like yet. And there actually is a real gap between where they are and where they'd like to be. And in that case, know, with your clinical judgment, you're not trying to help them heal the lie. It's like, well, like, part of it actually is true. And I'm gonna I'm gonna respect you enough to see the good in you, but also tell it like it is when it comes to the stuff that's missing and then construct a path, a strategy, a a game plan to get from point a to point b.

Mark Odland: 22:03

Mhmm. And also to encourage guys with, I think maybe we had talked in a previous conversation, Zach, about sometimes, you know, we look at our parents' generation and we see that, you know, they might have the house. They might have the career. They might have the 401K. They might have all these things, and we forget that it take them it took them decades Mhmm.

Mark Odland: 22:26

To build that. And now we feel this pressure that we're supposed to be there before, like, age 30 or before age 25. And Oh, yeah. Especially for entrepreneurs. Like, we have a lot of business owners that come to see us.

Mark Odland: 22:38

And, like in my experience it just takes grinding like day in and day out for days, years, and sometimes decades to sometimes turn the corner on certain things. And there's risk involved and there aren't guarantees. And so, sometimes expectations, like the gap between expectations and reality can be can be a problem in itself, I imagine.

Zack Carter: 23:05

Yeah. I think I think that's I I I think that's so true. And it's funny because you and I were were talking the other day and casually been been talking about, you know, yeah. Like, this is how my career is going so far. And I just got such a peace when you're like, yeah.

Zack Carter: 23:23

That makes sense for your age and where your experience is. And you give it a few more years, man. You're gonna even excel even more. Oh, yeah. And I was like I was like, oh, yeah.

Zack Carter: 23:31

That feels kinda nice. And sometimes you need you need to hear that. Right? I think there is a difference between, like, expectation of where you wanna be and and where is actually probably realistic

Mark Odland: 23:45

Right.

Zack Carter: 23:46

Which can lead us into another automatic negative thought, which is comparison to others. Right? That because, you know, we're starting a podcast right now and if we look at the numbers and if they don't look like Joe Rogan's numbers, we're like, we're

Zack Carter: 24:02

a failure. It's like, that's super easy to do. Right? Right.

Zack Carter: 24:06

And and so it's so easy to do that in our lives where we compare ourselves to whatever the ideal is and we're gonna like always fall short and therefore we're a failure. Right? So super easy to do that. Any other thoughts on that?

Mark Odland: 24:24

Yeah. Yeah, I think so. And that's part of the art of this process of counseling or or coaching is to have a trusted supportive person who's also gonna tell it like it is Mhmm. And and has some some insights that that have been tried and true, that have been tested, that can because a lot of times guys will like, deep down, there's a part of them

Mark Odland: 24:45

That knows they need to change, that knows they they want life to be better than it is. And but they can get stuck in their heads or they can get stuck in the busyness of life or they can be just trapped in these unhelpful patterns. And, you know, we're quick to give their credit to our clients because they're the ones who are doing the hard work. They're the ones who are you know, they might come to counseling or coaching one hour a week, for most of our guys. But, you know, all the hours for the rest of the week, they're just out there living it.

Mark Odland: 25:14

And so they're doing the hard work, but it's powerful to think that just that one hour a week can be a catalyst, for change and to have that person to keep you accountable, to speak truth, to encourage you, and to give you insights that you otherwise maybe wouldn't have you know wouldn't have thought about. Sometimes that's all it takes. Some people just kind of need whether it's sports or whether it's life sometimes having a coach or having a counselor it just it just helps. And like myself included there have been times in my life seasons of life where having a mentor, having a coach, having a therapist like it's just been huge. It's been a it's been a really big help.

Mark Odland: 25:55

And so again, you know, think about guys who are listening listening out there, know, we're we're trying to just, throw out, helpful information, and hopefully it's a blessing to you guys, but, if anyone wants to have more of that personal connection with you with Zach, with you, or with me and to, and to schedule something, that's definitely an option. Mhmm. And so, again, escapethecagenow.com. Cool stuff on the website you can check out, but, but back to the the cognitive distortions. I just think that I mean, for those who don't know, Zach, I mean Mhmm.

Mark Odland: 26:29

CBT is not, the new kid on the block here. Right? It's

Zack Carter: 26:32

Right. It's been around

Mark Odland: 26:34

a little bit. Been around for

Zack Carter: 26:35

a bit. Yeah.

Mark Odland: 26:35

Yeah. Yeah. You're not just experimenting with this new thing Zach Carter invented called, CBT.

Zack Carter: 26:41

No. This this is not like, hey, you guys. This worked for me, so it's gonna work for you.

Zack Carter: 26:45

Like, there's actually, like, you know, CBT has been highly researched. It's one of the most researched practices out there, and it's been around for decades. Right? And so it's been around a long time, like you said, because it because it tends to work. Right?

Zack Carter: 26:58

And so as we're talking about, you know, you're you're listening out there. You're like, okay. All this stuff is kind of, like, high level, bird's eye view. What can I practically do? Yeah.

Zack Carter: 27:07

Mark has already mentioned, like, look. Sometimes we just need help. Right? And so you can reach out for help. But, two, you know, we we've the other video that we've released so far is around motivation.

Zack Carter: 27:20

And so we dug into, hey. How do you begin to motivate yourself to move to next steps? But if you're looking for something quick that you can take away today, you know, it would be, you know, we talk about goals and goals are great. And so you need to know, hey, where am I heading? But even better, and I think you've already kind of mentioned this earlier is building in habits.

Zack Carter: 27:40

What are things that I can do on a regular basis that over time will grow and turn into something? If we look at investing, they say if you invest a little bit starting in your 20s and you do a little bit, little bit, little bit, but you're consistent with it, by the time you're ready to retire, you're literally going to become a millionaire. But you're saying, yeah, but this $50 doesn't do much. The $100 that I'm putting in each paycheck doesn't what does that actually do? Well, not much right there, but if you're doing it consistently over time, suddenly that growth goes way, way up.

Zack Carter: 28:13

Right? And so a lot of our actions work the same way. So building in those habits saying, hey, bare minimum, what is the thing I can do this week in moving into the future consistently to move myself closer and closer to success? So for me, in my career, it's like, okay, what can I learn each week? How can I grow each week?

Zack Carter: 28:34

Little bit over little bit over little bit, right? And so, I I specifically take time each week to learn and grow in in my my own profession and so, if you have a profession you're in, what's a thing that you can learn just a little bit each week, right? Or if you're making 20 sales calls right now, okay, how can we get you to do 25 sales calls, right? And get used to that and then move you to 30 sales calls over time, right? And so, that process of building in habits and building in patterns will begin to move you closer and closer and closer to the success that you're hoping to achieve.

Zack Carter: 29:07

Any thoughts on your end, Mark?

Mark Odland: 29:09

I think that's yeah. I think that's right on. And, and I would just encourage encourage guys listening out there to just to, also kind of embrace embrace the pain a little bit. Like, don't know if it this this idea that I mean, there truly are very few quick fixes in life, you know, magic bullets.

Mark Odland: 29:29

And, for example, I mean, even taking the insights that you shared today, Zach, about the disconnect between an accurate reading of who we are at this moment in time in life and the things we tell ourselves. Right? So if, you're telling yourself all or nothing thinking, I'm a failure. Mhmm. And now you're like, oh, man.

Mark Odland: 29:49

I listen to that Zach guy, and I wanna challenge that belief. I guess I guess I was top of my class, or I guess I was. Mhmm.

Mark Odland: 29:54

You

Mark Odland: 29:54

know, there's this positive, evidence. To the contrary. But I'll tell you that it's it's not easy to shake that lie. And so to put that into practice and to tell yourself, okay, the next time I have that thought of I'm a failure or that feeling of I'm a failure, I'm gonna challenge that. I'm going to take a deep breath, and I'm going to, remind myself of those three pieces of evidence that I I wrote down on that piece of paper that I stuck in my wallet.

Mark Odland: 30:27

And I'm gonna get it out. I'm gonna read it. And even though at first it's not gonna feel true, I'm just gonna do it anyway. And if I'm a spiritual guy, if I you know, might say a little prayer, and and and I'm gonna pray that that sinks in deeper. And and it's gonna feel weird.

Mark Odland: 30:43

It's gonna feel, disconnected. It might not feel true, but there's something about the habit, something about the practice of it that I imagine over time starts to stick easier. And and so the truth is the ruts that we get stuck in, there's a certain level of pain and discomfort that comes with that by doing nothing. And so, when it comes to, forging a new path forward, retraining the brain to to react in a different way, there's gonna be another kind of pain that comes with that. And so so I tell guys, pick your pain.

Mark Odland: 31:20

The pain that just happens to you while you sit there passively watching life happen to you or the pain that you choose on your terms and you can actually kind of psych yourself up and and feel like okay I'm I'm going into battle and this is a battle worth fighting because I love my family, I want to make the world a better place, and I and I want to achieve greater success in life. And I know what that is because I've defined it. Right? I mean, that that's a a powerful place to be, and it's gonna take a lot of work, but, you know, we've seen guys get there. And and and it's not gonna be perfect, because we're human, but we see progress happen, you know, every day with our clients, and it's it's inspiring.

Mark Odland: 32:02

And I know I know for me and I'm sure for you too, Zach, I mean, that's part of what what keeps us going in this in this industry is, we see tough stuff, but we see a lot of success stories too. And it's just yeah. It's it's it's empowering, and it's exciting, and it's just it's just hopeful.

Zack Carter: 32:18

Oh, yeah. I it's it's so funny. And this is my last thought. I was gonna let you have the the last word, and you can still have it if you want. But, I was like, this is perfect.

Zack Carter: 32:28

Pick your pain is such a great way to end. And then I was like, oh, he said something that's got me thinking about clients.

Zack Carter: 32:33

But yeah. And and, man, I I just want wanna let you guys know that there are people in really rough situations who, as they walk through the process of of healing, whether it's with us or on their own. You know, many of my clients, I have so much respect for.

Zack Carter: 32:54

I'm like, dude, I'm way more impressed by you than I am, like, with anything I've ever done. I'm like

Zack Carter: 33:01

just like, even if I'm the one that's kinda guiding what's going on, there are

Zack Carter: 33:05

some people I'm like, dang. This dude like, whether it's they've come from a rough background

Zack Carter: 33:10

and seeing all the things that they've overcome or or maybe just, like, the grit that they have. And it's like, we set goals or we set strategies and they just, like, do it, and

Zack Carter: 33:19

I'm like, dang. I got a few things. I'm not I haven't been haven't been doing that. I might do. And I just would encourage people listening that, like, if you feel like

Zack Carter: 33:29

you can't change, you can. Like, you can. Whether it's help with us, help, you know, or just listening or whatever. Like, you can't change. Don't get discouraged.

Zack Carter: 33:38

Whether you're struggling with addictions, with failure, with loneliness, whatever it is. Like, there are ways to move forward and heal and obtain the success that you're looking for.

Mark Odland: 33:49

That yeah. Exactly, Zach. I mean, that is that is such a good word. It's such a hopeful message, that, I think for those of you guys who are who are listening out there, I mean, that that might be a message you need to hear today that, like, guys who are in the trenches working with other men who are who are trying to be trying to be more than they are now, and trying to work through this this complicated messy business of, who am I really? Who do I really wanna be?

Mark Odland: 34:19

What does that look like? How do I measure that? That is hopeful. That is hopeful. That that there is hope.

Mark Odland: 34:26

There there is change is possible. And and I would just say, like, yep. I guess I'm taking the final word again. I don't know. Like, I'm No.

Zack Carter: 34:33

Please. Please do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Zack Carter: 34:34

Please do.

Mark Odland: 34:35

I would just say that sometimes I think the world and and even podcasts can almost set up this false dichotomy between either, you know, my trauma, the the the ways I've been victimized or hurt in my in in my past, that's that's what defines me, and and that's where I have to stay in my process. Or on the other side, get over it, step it up, you know, just be disciplined, ignore all that stuff. It's not worth dwelling on. And I think we do a pretty good job of acknowledging that yes, I mean there are genuinely ways that our past has shaped us and hurt us and that needs to be dealt with and contended with rather than shoved under the rug. And at the at the same time, that's not the place we wanna stay.

Mark Odland: 35:24

That even if you've been, truly victimized in some way in your life and that's shaped you, shaped the way you see the world, shaped the way you see yourself, it's one thing to know you've been victimized. It's another thing to embrace a mentality as as someone who stays a victim. And and that's my encouragement to to anyone who's experienced in that to say that's not who you are. You know, that's not your true self. That's part of your story, but that doesn't define you and that that's not the end of the story.

Mark Odland: 35:50

And you have choices. We all have choices, and we can decide what we do with the hand we've been dealt. And and sometimes when guys actually break loose, I mean, that that's one of the original taglines for lion counseling, right, is is to help men escape those cages that hold them back, to become those those lions that that we were meant to be. And then you look back on it all and you're like man I'm actually have more insight, more toughness, more substance not only because of what I've achieved, but because I've overcome these these tough things. And, so there there's kind of a redemption story that can that can be part of, the journey for a lot of guys we work with.

Mark Odland: 36:28

And but but yeah I'm so grateful we could have this have this talk today Zach and hear more about cognitive behavioral therapy and how powerful that is for challenging these these negative thoughts these cognitive distortions and just really practical strategies for how to overcome them and kind of move forward in life and overcome those obstacles that can get in the way of success. And so yeah so I guess all that being said thanks again for listening to the LINE Counseling Podcast. If anyone wants to check us out, escapethecagenow.com or look for the link in the description box and yeah, we'll keep you posted.

Zack Carter: 37:10

Alright, sounds good. Thanks everybody.