Lion Counseling Podcast

Mark Odland: 00:01

Welcome to the Lion Counseling Podcast. I'm Mark Odland, and this is Zach Carter. Our mission is to help men obtain success, purpose, happiness, and peace in their career and their personal lives. Today we're talking about manhood, how to define it, and what prevents us from attaining it.

Mark Odland: 00:46

If you're looking for help in your life reach out to us at escapethecagenow.com or check out the link in the description box. So today, this topic Man Up. Zach, I want to turn it over to you. This is a complicated topic. It's in our culture.

Mark Odland: 01:04

We see it all the time in our counseling practice and I would imagine there's a lot of confusing messages. I know there are a lot of confusing messages for guys out there today on what it means to be a man and let's let's dive right in. I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

Zack Carter: 01:21

Yeah. Let's yeah. And this is a a topic that I really struggled with for a really long time. Right? I grew up my little brother became a firefighter, and I became a counselor.

Zack Carter: 01:33

And so, like, I was the kid that was, like, the sensitive musician crying all the time, and he was the dude staring at me like, why are you crying all the time? Yep. And so, like so I really struggle with this topic. Like, am I am I really a man? Like like, this is very difficult.

Zack Carter: 01:48

And so after years of kind of thinking this through, think I've got a couple good examples that we'll start with as a representation of manhood, and then we'll discuss what are the components and how do we get there? So I think two great examples of manhood are Jesus and John Wick. So that's let's start with that. If you're a Christian, you know, Jesus is gonna be the example. Right?

Zack Carter: 02:14

So what do we see in Jesus? Well, a lot of people think Jesus is the dude that's like the nice guy and he's sensitive with kids and he's like, you know, always always being kind and saying peace peace on earth, goodwill towards all men, right? All this stuff. Right? And if if you actually read about him, the dude was a carpenter.

Zack Carter: 02:33

Like he worked with his hands. Right? The dude's best friends were carrying around old school gats. Right? They were strapped.

Zack Carter: 02:41

They had their swords. Right? So like, did they have swords if they didn't intend to use them? Like that's kind of strange. Like we don't think of, like, Jesus hanging around a bunch of guys that have weapons on them.

Zack Carter: 02:51

One of them cut a dude's ear off. Right? Right. And so, like, there was a moment where Jesus was going through the temple, kicking over tables, whipping people. Like, what is that?

Zack Carter: 03:01

And then we read in Revelation that he's gonna come back with a sword. Right? So, like Right. Yep. So there's two parts of Jesus.

Zack Carter: 03:07

Right? There is the part of Jesus that is kind, that is loving, that is gentle with people, but there's also the side of Jesus that's very tough, very like what we would say is masculine, like working with your hands, right? And so, yeah, so that's a good example, I think, if men are Christians for like, you know, looking at him. If you're not a Christian, if you're like, that's not really my thing. Let's talk about John Wick.

Zack Carter: 03:33

John Wick's manly too, right? And so like, we get this dude that is not afraid to take out some Russians, right? And so, but at the same time, we see these images of him spending time with his wife, being gentle with his wife, right? Having a puppy, taking care of dogs, right? Being gentle with the dogs, like he's not beating up on the dogs, right?

Zack Carter: 03:52

He's like very gentle, very caring when he has people or animals that he's close with. Any any thoughts on this, Mark?

Mark Odland: 04:00

Yeah. I mean, that that is such a such a profound thought that, you know, we can almost even in even with people with devout faith, it can be easy to kind of fall into thinking about the parts of our faith or the parts of someone we admire, and just trying to connect to the pieces we resonate with and not looking at the full picture. Right? Looking at and and and if you only look at the verses where Jesus or god is like super tough, super assertive, maybe even harsh at times, we're missing out on that other side, the the complete picture of that that that the tender side, the loving, the grace, the forgiveness. But it's almost like if you spend too much time in on just one side, you're missing the full picture.

Mark Odland: 04:48

Mhmm. And and so, yeah, it really it's it's very thought provoking as as, you know, you're bringing up this example, like, I guess we can think about both examples, but first thinking about Jesus, how it's like if I'm really trying to model my life after him, if that's if that's something that I wanna try to do, like, what's my reference point? And and how do I how do I even pursue that? And but one thing I'm kind of getting from you, and tell me if this is right, it's it's almost like I think about this I think about, like, the volume, you know, like the volume on my computer, on my cell phone. And it's like the masculinity is at the top and the femininity is at the bottom.

Mark Odland: 05:30

And I think our culture is saying in a lot of places masculinity is bad and toxic and so you just have to turn down the volume toward the feminine. And what I hear from you is it's not quite like that. It's almost like turn up the volume actually on authentic masculinity and also turn up the volume on some of those maybe creative or emotional or self reflective sides of us as men because that's also part of masculinity. That's actually not femininity doesn't have a monopoly on being creative, being emotional, being loving. That can be a genuine part of masculinity as well.

Mark Odland: 06:09

So you might have a different metaphor or way of thinking about that but that's kind of what came to mind for me just now.

Zack Carter: 06:15

Yeah. No. And and and that's great. And and it is tough because if we're in a culture right now where, you know, if you you look at the the forties and the the fifties, know, it feels like a lot of the the media that was coming out that, you know, men wore suits, and they go and fight in wars, and you go and you fish. Right?

Zack Carter: 06:37

There was a few years ago. I you know, I I forget the name of the book, but there was a book that came out in Christian circles that was really popular that was talking about manhood. It was like, basically, manhood was you go out into the woods and you build your own cabin and you kill bears with your bear bear hands. And, like, it's like all and I was like, dude, I can't I don't I I'm not interested in any of that. So, like, am I a man?

Zack Carter: 07:01

And so there's, like, that aspect, and then there's the aspect of, like, oh, don't be assertive. Don't be too tough in our culture now. Right? And so, like, what is a is a guy supposed to do? Like, how what are they supposed to model themselves after Right.

Zack Carter: 07:15

When you have these two, like, oh, you're supposed to be overly sensitive or you're not supposed to have any emotions at all. So, like, where do we fall? And so it sounds like that's kinda where where you were heading, Mark.

Mark Odland: 07:25

Yeah. That that's right. And as as as you're saying that, Zach, too, the other practical question that comes to mind for me around this issue is kind of what we face as counselors too, right, is what is that balance between comfort and stress or anxiety? Right? And it's like on one hand there are guys that we work with and you just want to be like, man, like stop beating yourself up.

Mark Odland: 07:48

Like you are a unique creation of God with your own set of gifts and talents and personality and he didn't wire you to be a guy to try to kill the bear with your own hands, and that's okay. Like, that is totally okay.

Zack Carter: 07:59

Like Yeah. Yeah.

Mark Odland: 08:00

Go with that. Like, he made you this way. Like, that's awesome. Like, live that to the fullest. And then there's this other side of me that's like, yeah.

Mark Odland: 08:09

But you probably should be able to kill a bear. %. So it's like, much do we stretch ourselves on the edges of who we are, who we think we are, who we're created to be, and learn new skills and and and and and pick up new ways of expressing ourselves and and and having competency in the world. Mhmm. And how much do we just kinda be like, man, stop pressuring me.

Mark Odland: 08:36

Let me just be who I am and live that out. So maybe I'm overblowing that tension, but that's that's for me, I guess, that's what comes up. Like

Zack Carter: 08:43

Yeah. I think that's perfect. Right? And so, like, you know, back to the spectrum question. So maybe it's not even, you know, masculinity versus femininity.

Zack Carter: 08:52

Right? Maybe maybe the spectrum for a lot of guys is on one end, there's the nice guy, on the other end is the bad boy. Right? And so, like, do I need to be fake? Do I need to go all the way over to bad boy?

Zack Carter: 09:02

Right? And so it's it's a balance. It's like where where can we find the danger that's within men to be dangerous, right, while also having kindness, right, being loving, right, being truthful. And so I think that is the goal that should be for becoming a man. I think that that's what we're drawn to in certain, you know, manly characters in media or in scripture or whatever.

Zack Carter: 09:31

Right? So then begs the question. Right? Okay. So if I'm on one end of the spectrum or I'm on the other, like, what do I do?

Zack Carter: 09:37

So Right. I say we start with nice guy. Right?

Mark Odland: 09:40

Yeah. Okay.

Zack Carter: 09:40

Because I felt like I grew up being the nice guy. So, like, what do you do if you're the nice guy? So first off, you gotta do some work on yourself before going out and practicing. So the first thing you need to realize is nice is not a virtue. It's not a virtue.

Zack Carter: 09:56

Okay? And I work with a lot of guys who struggle with addictions. And oftentimes what we talk about is you have to replace one pattern of behavior with a healthier pattern, right? So if when you're stressed, you go and drink, then like instead you go for a run or you reach out to friends and you hang out with friends or you engage in a hobby. Right?

Zack Carter: 10:19

So you want to replace that drinking with something else. So I encourage you, if you're the nice guy, we need to replace nice with something better. Right? Nice might not be morally wrong, but it's probably not gonna work for you in the long term. Right?

Zack Carter: 10:32

So replacing it with virtues like truthfulness or being loving, I think, is the verse the first step. Right? So finding a virtue and saying like, okay. I'm gonna replace nice with this virtue. Any thoughts on that, Mark?

Mark Odland: 10:44

Well yeah. I mean, because I think there's there's a lot there with the niceness piece. Mhmm. Because, yeah, I mean, it can be easy to hide behind. I'm a nice person.

Zack Carter: 10:53

Mhmm.

Mark Odland: 10:53

When in fact, you're just avoiding conflict Or you're avoiding disappointing people or you're being paralyzed by your perfectionism and so you're just nice to everyone or you don't have the confidence to assert yourself in the world. And so you tell yourself I'm just being nice, but really you're missing out on opportunities. You you never ask the girl on the date. You never apply for the job.

Mark Odland: 11:17

You never stand up to your spouse and have an important conversation that needs to be had. Right? And so I think some people grow up too. I think, feeling like niceness is of your virtue. It's modeled by their parents.

Mark Odland: 11:31

And maybe it's never spoken aloud, but this idea that if I rock the boat, if I stand up for myself, if I embrace a sense of boldness in in the world or competency and can still do that lovingly, then somehow bad things are gonna happen. And so there's just this deep aversion that some guys have to potentially failing and potentially messing things up, and they just I don't know. And sometimes they're not even aware of it. They're on autopilot just trying to be nice, and they don't it just feels like something's not right in the world. And, you know, people in their life might be well intentioned and say, you know, you're special just the way you are.

Mark Odland: 12:13

It's totally fine. But deep down, the guy is like, I don't feel fine.

Zack Carter: 12:18

Mhmm.

Mark Odland: 12:19

This niceness thing, something it's not the full picture. I want more. And and I think you're tapping into that, Zach, that there's a more well rounded masculinity that's better than niceness. It's not the abandonment of care or virtue, but it's it's almost like niceness is is is settling for something even more shallow almost. Mhmm.

Zack Carter: 12:40

Yeah. I think that's awesome. I agree totally. So what do they do then? Okay.

Zack Carter: 12:47

So you're you're you're the guy out there. You're like, okay. I'm on board. I'm gonna replace nice with something like truthfulness, but like, I'm still nervous to do this. Okay?

Zack Carter: 12:55

There's some very staple cognitive behavioral questions you can ask yourself that you can use as you begin to try to practice being more assertive, right? Being stronger, being braver. Okay? So if you got notes, write this down. Okay?

Zack Carter: 13:08

So one great question is if I was in the other person's shoes, how would I I want to be approached or treated. Right? So if I was in the other person's shoes, how would I wanna be approached or treated? And two, what's the worst thing that's gonna happen if I confront this person? What's the best thing?

Zack Carter: 13:23

And what's the thing that's most likely to happen? Okay. So you wanna ask yourself those questions. So let's give an example that I think any nice guy would have a tough time which is sending food back at the restaurant, right? So you're at the restaurant, the waiter or waitress, they're super nice, but they didn't give you fries, man.

Zack Carter: 13:42

They gave you mashed potatoes. And that's kind of annoying. They didn't bring the honey mustard that you like. They missed it. Right?

Zack Carter: 13:47

And so you're like, I'll just deal with it. Right? So people are like, No, I'm trying to be truthful. Right? I'm trying not to avoid conflict.

Zack Carter: 13:58

Ask yourself a few questions. Okay? What would the owner want you to do? So what happens with a lot of nice guys, I think, is that they'll go to that restaurant, they script the order, okay, I just won't come back. So like ultimately, are you actually being nice?

Zack Carter: 14:11

Are you even doing the thing that you're trying to do? Or are just avoiding conflict? Because the owner would say, It would be nice if you let me know so that we can fix it because I want you back. I want you to continue spending money here. Right?

Zack Carter: 14:23

And so truthfulness, once again, is the better route to go. Right? So ask yourself, what would they want me to do? Right? Next is what's the worst thing that can happen if you tell the thing the waiter?

Zack Carter: 14:34

Maybe you hurt their feelings, maybe they feel bad. Okay. Sure. Right? But I think that's probably the end of it.

Zack Carter: 14:40

Right? What's the best thing? Oh, man. They are like, you know what? I've been trying to get better at this, and I'm I'm gonna find some ways to make sure that I remember orders because other customers have been telling me, shoot.

Zack Carter: 14:53

I haven't been reminding. So they're like, you know what? I'm gonna start I'm gonna start taking notes. I haven't been taking notes. I've been trying to remember.

Zack Carter: 14:57

I'm gonna start taking notes. And now they're a better waiter or waitress. What's the most likely thing to happen? Most likely, they're not gonna care. Go grab your other food, and then they're not gonna think about it.

Zack Carter: 15:08

That's the most likely situation. And then you have the food that you want. Right? So if you're a person that's a nice guy, you have difficult asserting yourself, sending food back at the restaurant, that's actually a really good place to start practicing that assertiveness.

Mark Odland: 15:25

I like it. Even if they get the order right, are you saying we should try that, Zach? No. I'm kidding.

Zack Carter: 15:29

You know, truthfulness is the virtue. Probably not. Probably not.

Mark Odland: 15:36

But, I mean, if you yeah. No. I I get what you're saying. There are these opportunities. That's a classic one because I love that.

Mark Odland: 15:45

That's a place to practice, and it might feel really uncomfortable, I imagine, if you're consider yourself a nice guy. And to do that, it feels like you're being mean. It feels like the fill in the blank. But I love the way you broke that down with, like, using your the your your rational mind to actually sort through the emotions. Right?

Mark Odland: 16:04

And and then there I think then then you and then and embracing the awkwardness and just being like, this is gonna get better with time. Right? But, yeah, I think I come back to what you were saying too before about, like, niceness not being a virtue necessarily. Right? Because I can't remember if it was, like, a Jordan Peterson thing, but saying, like, yeah, this idea that not not doing something isn't isn't inherently a virtue if you're not even able to do that thing to begin with.

Mark Odland: 16:38

Mhmm. Right? If you have the ability to send back your food because you are confident, you've done it before, and then once in a while, you're like, oh, just give that waiter a break. Well, that's different than a guy who's like, I just don't have it inside me to be able to get my order right or send the food back. Right?

Mark Odland: 16:57

Because one place is coming you know, one guy is coming from a place of strength, and the other guy is just coming from this place of, like, timidness. And and as you know full well too, whether it comes to friends, job opportunities, or or the dating scene, or even even guys who are are married, that timidness is not necessarily an attractive quality to other people. And, you know, people are scanning to say, can I trust this person? Will they follow through? Do they have my back?

Mark Odland: 17:27

Are they capable of having my back? So sending back the food might seem like such a small thing, but it's kind of representative of this bigger dynamic of maybe I'm not the kind of guy yet who sends back my food, but but I'm am I willing to do the work to become a guy who can do that? Right. And if you have that spirit of openness and, like, willing to take on a new challenge and build a skill, man, I admire that a lot because that's that's shifting gears. Yeah.

Zack Carter: 18:00

It's it's super difficult if you're not if you're not if you're not practicing that. So for some people that might be easy, but for you, maybe it's not. Right? And then you're able to build up to bigger things like confronting your boss and saying, don't feel like I'm being paid enough or I feel like I'm being overworked. Right?

Zack Carter: 18:16

And so if you're like, well, but Zach, so this is all well and good. This is kind of theoretical. Do you have something like super tangible that I can do? Well, my favorite method is the compliment sandwich. Maybe you've heard of it, maybe you haven't.

Zack Carter: 18:27

Right? And so you can, if you were talking about the waiter, it's like, you can start gently. Right? We you don't need to be a jerk about it. Right?

Zack Carter: 18:34

You don't need to go on the other end of the spectrum too far on the other end of the spectrum and be a jerk. You can be like, hey. Appreciate all the work you're doing for us. So I actually ordered fries, not not the mashed potatoes. Would you mind grabbing that for me?

Zack Carter: 18:46

Just once again, appreciate you, man. Thanks for grabbing that. Right? And so, like, you can do it in a way where you're nice at the beginning. Right?

Zack Carter: 18:54

You're we'll call it kind if we're trying to avoid nice. Like, you're being kind at the beginning. You're inserting the confrontation, and then you're kind at the end again. Right? And so you can find a way to practically do that and use a method like that to be assertive while still feeling like, okay, I'm decreasing the likelihood of hurting the other person in some way.

Mark Odland: 19:15

Dude, that was that was smooth. I will say I was pretending I was a waiter for a second, and, like, I was like, great. I'll give you a free dessert on top of the mat like, on top of the fries because I'm like, man, somehow I made a mistake, but I feel better about myself because this

Zack Carter: 19:29

guy is so good. Yeah. You can cut and if and if there's something that the waiter did, he's like, hey, man. Dude, you're the coolest. Like, you've been super cool when you've come up and you've talked to us and told us jokes.

Zack Carter: 19:41

You're really funny, man. Hey. Oh, by the way, like, hey. Do you mind switching this out for me? I'd I'd ask for a price.

Zack Carter: 19:46

Right? And so you can if you don't have a compliment specifically, you can just be kind and just say like, hey, I appreciate you. I just want you to know that And then insert it in. So either way, whether you actually find a compliment, it's like, hey, dude. You're super funny, by the way.

Zack Carter: 20:01

Like or whatever. Like, that can definitely be a be a great way to be assertive without being a jerk. Right? Exactly.

Mark Odland: 20:09

I love that. I think that's in what a this what a practical example. The compliment sandwich. Alright. I can remember that.

Zack Carter: 20:16

It's it's great. I love it. Yeah. Like on me. Yeah.

Zack Carter: 20:19

I had a boss pull it on me. I was like, okay. I'll do better, but thanks for being so nice. Yeah. It's so great.

Zack Carter: 20:25

So now we've talked about the nice guy. Yep. Let's talk about the bad boy if you're overly tough. Right? And so here I I just could, like, hear the audible groan as I'm about to say this, but but please stick with me.

Zack Carter: 20:38

Okay? So, yes, we're gonna have to talk about emotions. Yes, we're gonna have to talk about feelings. And before you shut this off, I'm like you, man. Whenever people brought up emotions, I like to avoid talking about emotions as much as the next guy.

Zack Carter: 20:53

I was in a counseling program and they would say, let's talk about emotions and I would be like, do we have to? But if you understand emotions, if you understand their biological purpose, we've talked about it in a different video, but just as like a brief review, things like depression, what is the purpose? The purpose of depression is focusing on something that happened in the past that was bad, right? And it slows you down, right? And so it slows you down so you can figure out what can I do next to make sure that this doesn't happen again, right?

Zack Carter: 21:27

Anxiety is future focused. It speeds you up. It says you need to fix this problem before something bad happens in the future, Right? So if you understand that each emotion has a purpose, then you'll expand your vocabulary outside of I feel bad, I feel mad. Right?

Zack Carter: 21:45

Those are the two things, especially if you're not on the nice guy spectrum, you're on the tougher guy spectrum that you need that you need to understand. Right? So that when you and your wife are yelling at each other, when you are confronting your neighbor about, you know, the annoying things that he's doing, right? You can actually communicate in a way that leads the other person to be less defensive, right? So if you're talking to your wife and you're able to say like, it's not about being mad, it's that I was disappointed that this thing happened or hey, babe, right now with work and with kids and everything, I'm just feeling overwhelmed or hey, I want to help with this particular thing that's going wrong but I'm confused.

Zack Carter: 22:29

I just don't know what to do, Right? So if you're able to communicate that, you can keep your man card. Man card is still kept, but you can actually communicate in a way that's healthy, right? Because especially in the family setting, typically, you know, I'm not an expert on women, but most of the ones I've talked to, they want you to be, you know, the grizzly bear to the bad guy that's coming in, but they want you to be the teddy bear in the house with her and the kids. Right?

Zack Carter: 22:55

So you need to be able to wear both those hats. Any thoughts?

Mark Odland: 23:00

I'm just reeling from first we're trying to kill grizzly bears, and now we are the grizzly bear and we're

Mark Odland: 23:04

the grizzly So there's lots of bear metaphors happening. There's a lot of bear metaphors happening. And I'm just overwhelmed, Zach. I don't I don't know how to handle this.

Zack Carter: 23:10

And then you should be eating gummy bears. That's gonna help decrease the toughness as well if you're overly tough.

Mark Odland: 23:18

Though that I I've never actually heard the grizzly bear teddy bear thing, and it's in my brain forever now. So I that I think that that captures it very well. Yeah. And and I think just pausing to to recognize that I think guys who rightly recognize that there's a place for a place for being a provider and a protector to have strength in this world, Sometimes they feel cornered in this culture, and they double down on the no emotions thing. And I think we're just inviting guys to be like, dude, like, yeah, be that strong guy.

Mark Odland: 23:54

Be that protector. Be that provider. Know how to have these skills. And, you know, I think about these emotions as they're like electrical impulses. Right?

Mark Odland: 24:06

Just shooting through our body, giving us information. And, you know, it's kinda like if, you know, if you're a homeowner out there or even have an apartment, yeah, you know, you don't have to be electrician, but having some basic understanding of, like, what electricity does in your house, like, that's not a bad thing. It's just information. It's just information that empowers you to to understand what's happening. Like, if if there's a lightning storm, yeah, maybe maybe you wanna unplug some of your appliances so that things don't blow up.

Mark Odland: 24:36

Right? Or maybe if there's a surge, you know, I've got the space heater running and all this electricity is being pulled and then the circuit breaker flips so the house doesn't, like, blow up. Oh, that doesn't mean that the circuitry is weak or, like, somehow, like, wimpy or whatever. It's just like, thank goodness it's there. Like so full circle, back to what you were saying is emotions aren't really good or bad.

Mark Odland: 25:03

When they're firing the right way, they're meant to keep us alive. They're they serve a purpose. And I and I just think that's like a game changer. If guys haven't heard that before, that every emotion when it's working the right way has a purpose, and it's meant to keep us alive or connect us to other people. And so, yeah, I just think it's I just really appreciate what you're saying, Zach, because, like, that is such helpful knowledge for us, and it's such a good reminder for me even just to, like, take that in.

Mark Odland: 25:33

Mhmm.

Zack Carter: 25:34

Yeah. Well so that that's primarily what I had today on on manhood. I'll let you have a last word. Any anything that maybe we didn't cover today before we wrap?

Mark Odland: 25:46

Man, that's a that's a good question. I think my inner John Wick is always a battle. It's like, I know we both trained jujitsu before, and Yeah. I was getting close to my blue belt, and then and then life happened and got busy and I've been out for a few months and I'm like, okay, it's like I have to go back. Part of is resisting it at all costs and the other part of me is like, I gotta do it.

Mark Odland: 26:10

I just gotta do it. And so I think that that's going back full circle attention piece of like Mhmm. Oh, man. I know that's not my identity, but, if there's a bad guy on the bus, like, wanna be able to do something.

Zack Carter: 26:25

Right. Yeah.

Mark Odland: 26:26

And it'll probably never happen. I've never used my magic power of jujitsu in real life, but it's but the John Wick, I feel like there's another episode in there somewhere that that we can flesh out the John Wick even more because I'm intrigued.

Zack Carter: 26:40

Look. Even if you can't be the John Wick, grab a whip, be like Jesus and whip those people, like whoever it is. First time anyone's ever heard that.

Mark Odland: 26:50

That's Zach Carter guy. He thinks outside the box. People across the country will be preaching sermons on the Zach viral Zach Carter video, bud. It's your wit.

Zack Carter: 27:01

We're like Jesus and wit people.

Mark Odland: 27:04

You know, if you've been with us for a while, you'll you'll pick up that we do have some sarcasm in this podcast. Yes.

Zack Carter: 27:10

Just a little bit.

Mark Odland: 27:10

That's okay.

Zack Carter: 27:11

Just a little bit.

Mark Odland: 27:12

I love it. Well, Jack, thank you so much. It's, been great talking with you as as always. It's, it's, so great to to dig into these topics. Of course, if you like this video and want to hear more and be informed of future videos, hit that subscribe button and notification bell to be aware of when they come out.

Mark Odland: 27:32

And if you're looking for help, feel free to reach out at escapethecagenow.com or click on the link in the description box. So thanks everybody for hanging out with us and we'll talk soon.

Zack Carter: 27:44

Thanks everybody.