Episode 31 – How to Create a Career (Even If You’re Stuck)
Everybody to Lion Counseling Podcast. I'm Mark Ottlin, founder of Lion Counseling and certified EMDR therapist.
Zack Carter:And I'm Zach, counselor and coach.
Mark Odland:And our mission is to help men to break free, to heal deep and to become the lions they were created to be. What if I told you that your dream career might not exist? All that pressure you feel to quote unquote find your passion or or do what you love might actually be keeping you stuck. The truth is you don't need a perfect career path. You need a meaningful story.
Mark Odland:A job that pays the bills. But a career? That's the story you're writing with your life. And the best part is you don't have to get it all right today. You can experiment.
Mark Odland:You can diversify. You can build one step at a time. So stop waiting for the dream career to fall into your lap, and let's talk about how to actually create a path worth walking. And since you're already here, if you don't mind hitting that subscribe button, down below, we'd really appreciate it. Helps keep the channel growing, and to help more men.
Mark Odland:Alright, Zach. Job versus career. Let's jump in.
Music:Be the lion you was destined to be. Born ready for the war, now my effort is free. The level's been set, time to wrestle the beast. Testing my g is getting heavy indeed. The struggle I embrace now, never retreat.
Music:I see the test as a blessing indeed.
Zack Carter:What a what a definition, man. Hard to follow that. That's so good. So yeah. So essentially, kinda like you're saying, a a job is something that pays the bills.
Zack Carter:A job tends to be something temporary, and a career is your story. The career is the thing that you're building. As I was kind of searching around the difference of jobs and careers, the definition I kept finding for a career is a series of connected jobs, roles, or experiences that build towards a bigger purpose or professional identity. I don't know if I agree with the connected though. As I was kinda like thinking through that, you know, when I when I'm thinking about my career, there's like a bunch of things that kind of led up to this moment as a counselor doing this podcast may not have seemed connected, I was building my professional identity through building various skills.
Zack Carter:Right? And so even the idea of a a career, kind of the idea behind this podcast is we we need to stop trying to find a dream career. We need to create our dream career is the big thing. Right? And so we're all kind of, like, looking around for this unicorn.
Zack Carter:It's like, no. You, like, make the thing that you wanna be. Right? And so when we do that, we're engaging in something called all or nothing thinking. Right?
Zack Carter:Perfectionistic thinking. We wanna steer clear of that because that tends to immobilize us. It tends to make it hard for us to move forward in our life and we kinda just stay put. We stay stuck. Right?
Zack Carter:So we don't wanna let the perfect career get in the way of a good career. Right? Sure. And so last thing I wanna say on career before we begin to say like, well, how do we begin making our way towards that? Is that I think oftentimes we also think of a career as like one thing.
Zack Carter:And as I've been prepping for this podcast and as I've been thinking this through, like, all the people I look up to, it wasn't like one thing that they did. Like, they do like a bunch of things. So, like, you and I are fans of Jordan Peterson. Jordan Peterson in his career has been a teacher. He's been a counselor.
Zack Carter:He's been a researcher. He's been an author. He's been a podcaster. He tours and speaks. He now runs his own university.
Zack Carter:Like, it's like a variety of things. They're all kinda interconnected a bit, but it's like a variety of things. I'll talk about me real quick. But, you know, even looking at your resume, Mark, I we can we can begin to see you kinda have a similar thing. And so like, even for me, like, you know, when I start the podcast, I say counselor and coach.
Zack Carter:Right? I do both things. Right now, I'm I'm counseling clients, but I also coach clients, like to help them get out of their bad habits. We don't have to go too much into detail about the differences of those things. But also, I'm doing this podcast.
Zack Carter:Like, we're we're we're podcasts. Right? You and I are talking about different things that we wanna do with this in the future, potentially writing books, going and speaking. Right?
Mark Odland:Exactly.
Zack Carter:And so but even in my past, at one point, was working in banking, but I, at the same time, was being I I was a college pastor and at the same time, I was a podcaster at that time too. And so throughout my career, I've been building these skills. Like and you're like, well, what does banking have to do with I help clients, teach them how to manage their money. What did podcasting have to do with your career? Oh, well, now we're creating this podcast where we're helping people with mental health.
Zack Carter:What did being a college pastor have to do? Like, Mark and I, before we started recording, I was talking about a client that we were having a discussion around the idea of divorce and what does the bible have to say about divorce. Because I had a background in the bible and understanding theology, we were able to have that conversation. Right? And so if you're out there listening, all the things that you're doing is building a career.
Zack Carter:None of this has to go to waste. You're building a set of skills that you can now use in various places, various types of jobs. Right? Any any thoughts on that, Mark?
Mark Odland:I love that, Zach. I mean, it's it's interesting as I hear you talk because, in some ways, our kind of, like, career journey kind of has some, similarities. Right? Because, we both had ministry, at one point in our career that's kind of dovetailing into what we do now as as counselors, therapists. But I remember you were like in the music world for a while too.
Mark Odland:Mhmm. And and for me it was visual art. But we both have that really creative side to us. And I think it's such good timing that you're talking about this too because I I've been really intrigued by AI, right? And what's going to happen to careers to jobs because of AI and in one podcast, the guys like, you know, I'm convinced that the formerly, formerly, I kind of out out outdated like liberal arts education might actually be really important now to to learn to have to to kind of be a polymath, to learn different things, to be able to synthesize, to be able to integrate ideas, to be able to think critically, like those are skills that you can transfer into different kinds of jobs, different kinds of career paths, right?
Mark Odland:And a final thought, I guess I would say would be, you know, in at least, you know, in traditional Christianity, there's this thing we call the doctrine of vocation, right? Vocation is a fancy word for a career or a calling but the idea that you don't have to be a priest or a pastor to have a really important role in this world, right? And that whether it be you're a sanitation worker or a CEO or somewhere in between. If you do it to the best of your ability and you have that that that reason why you're doing it and and for our you know, Christian guys out there and you're doing it as as an act of worship to to serve god and to give him glory. Man, that job is dignified.
Mark Odland:That job is worthy and it's and it's more than a job, Right? Mhmm. And and I love how you're how you're saying that the things that seem disconnected actually can be more connected than we think when we look back. So 100%. Yeah.
Mark Odland:Those are my thoughts, Zach. Yeah, I'm intrigued to hear more.
Zack Carter:Well, and one last question for you. So what does this look like in your life? Because I I feel like I was talking about how it kind of tracked with my life, but what would you say about how that looks in your life?
Mark Odland:Yeah. I mean, man, I did not have it all planned out. Right? So when I started college, I'm like, well, I've always been an artist. I love to draw.
Mark Odland:I love to paint. I'm very creative. I'll be an art major. That that's like the really practical thing you want to hear as a parent, right? It's like your kids in our major, right?
Mark Odland:But then, that seemingly disconnected thing about being an art major but I added a religion major. My faith is really growing a lot at that time and I started feeling led toward ministry. Continue to do art, continue to be creative, right? Became a therapist, became a pastor, went into counseling full time at a certain point, but then guess what the creativity didn't go away, right? So started playing with ideas, creating courses for other therapists writing books for for clients, integrating one of the the books we have on the Lion website is you know, one year, I'm like, okay, this is my meditation.
Mark Odland:I'm going to reflect on all the trauma therapy that I've done over the years And I'm gonna write poems and pair them with works of art as kind of a meditation on trauma and my work as an EMDR therapist. And I've got a really positive response from that, right? So I think a lot of things do end up coming together. And I think the creativity that we both have is being infused into this podcast. I think it's the way we think about where Lion Counseling can go, where the Lion Counseling Podcast can go.
Mark Odland:So I don't know if that really answers your question or not, Sam. But That was perfect.
Zack Carter:Yeah. Yeah. The the last thing that I really loved about your intro was talking about diversifying what you do in your career. And it's so funny that you said that because that's been something I've been munching on for a year because that's, you know, I've got income sources from a couple of different places and I'm like, you know, they talk about diversifying your investments, right? Because if one investment falls through, you have others that hopefully potentially are gaining income, right?
Zack Carter:And so that's kind of how I saw my career is like, okay, well we want to have streams of revenue in different places that's coming in. And that way if one one place in particular is drying up a bit, the other one will will fill in the gap and vice versa. And that's that's been the truth in my career, especially as as a counselor and coach. So yeah. So if you're listening, you know, we we wanna break out of that all or nothing thinking, like, this is what I do.
Zack Carter:You can do a variety of things, and even I was thinking about my dad. And my dad was a teacher, but he also painted on the side, but he also did music and played live and got income from that. And so it's like, they don't have to interconnect either. There's a lot of people that are out there that might be creatives that are like, I wanna do music for a living. Cool.
Zack Carter:If you wanna do that, awesome. The likelihood is you won't make any money. Like, let's just be honest. Yeah. Let's be honest.
Zack Carter:Right? Yeah. You're okay with that, cool. The when you mentioned that I was in the entertainment industry for a bit, I was, and it was not what I thought it was gonna be. Like, it's all shiny and sparkly till you get behind the screen, the scenes.
Zack Carter:Right. And you're getting yelled at by the assistant director for getting lost driving the talent to their hotel. I'm not saying that happened to me. But and then you're like, no. But I I bought a new GPS.
Zack Carter:I swear, I've I've fixed this. And then they say, don't care. Just don't screw up. That may have happened to me. I think I heard about this.
Mark Odland:Zach, I think I heard about this on
Zack Carter:That was you. That was me. So so yeah. You might be talking to other people who work in the industry. You're like, yeah.
Zack Carter:As the as the low person on the totem pole, I had to go through this park and pick up heroin needles to make sure that the shot looked pretty. Like, they don't tell you about this. Right? Where was I going with this point? Create a joke.
Zack Carter:Create yeah. Oh, this is yeah. If you wanna be in this industry, go for it. Like, if you want to, go for it. But just know that it may not look like what you want it to.
Zack Carter:And maybe the thing that you want is like, hey. I want some stability, but I want some creativity. And so, like, okay. Cool. So maybe you do get a stable job that pays the bills, but then you also do music or art or video or whatever, either at church or on the side making money.
Zack Carter:Like so just we don't wanna have this, like, one dimensional box thinking of, like, a career is one thing. This is what I do and that's all that I do. And that's all that a career is is like where I primarily make my money. Yeah. So cool.
Zack Carter:So that's kind of the concept. Yes. This was just the intro everyone. Okay. So now what do we actually begin to do to move towards areas of making money that we're interested in?
Zack Carter:So there's basically there's basically three big steps that I found. You know, we did a podcast on finding a committed spouse, like finding a spouse, like, does that look like? And as I was studying for a career, it seemed like the steps were very similar. And it was basically there are three big steps. We're gonna break those down and for I'll I'll list them and then we'll, like, break down each one.
Zack Carter:Essentially, the steps are gather the ideas, edit your ideas, and then having a bias towards action. Right? Actually do something, like actually begin making a move. Okay? So what that looked like in the dating episode was essentially list all the traits that you want in a future spouse, edit it down to three, and then as you go out and interact with other people, when you see a person that you're attracted to, do they have these top three things?
Zack Carter:Okay. That's the person that you ask on a date. Right? Sure. So it's gonna look very similar in the career.
Zack Carter:Right? So we're gonna list a bunch of ideas. We're gonna get everything on paper. Maybe you have some ideas already. Great.
Zack Carter:You're you're ahead you're ahead of the curve. Right? So list all the things as you go through your life and say like, what were the hobbies that I enjoyed? What were my favorite parts of my past jobs? What were my favorite jobs?
Zack Carter:What were my least favorite jobs? What do I want to avoid like the plague? And so you list all this out. Okay? So that's gonna be step one.
Zack Carter:However, some people listening might not have a good idea. Okay?
Mark Odland:Right.
Zack Carter:And so what we're gonna do is we're gonna go through something called a mind map. Okay? So these are pretty cool. Okay. So in our mind map, what we're going to do is we're going to list we're going to list something in the in the middle.
Zack Carter:So in the very middle. Right? So in this particular example, it's for this person it's being outdoors. Okay? So you find a thing that you like about life.
Zack Carter:Okay? Maybe it's art, maybe it's business, maybe it's numbers, maybe it's reading. So you find a thing, you put that thing in the middle. Okay? You set a timer for a minute.
Zack Carter:And now what we're going do is we're going to have five or six lines coming out of that that first idea. In this example, it's being outdoors. And we're going to try to we're going to try to anything coming to mind, we're gonna go ahead and put those things. So for this person, they put travel is being outdoors, hiking, camping, surfing, nature. Right?
Zack Carter:So they these things are just kind of coming up they put those things down. You set a timer, once that timer runs out, stop going. Try not to edit, try not to judge anything coming up, you just put the things that you're thinking. You're then going to do the same thing in the next next the thing. You're going to have maybe three lines or so.
Zack Carter:You're going to set another timer. And so for travel, they have Hawaii, Europe, backpacking. For hiking, they have boots. So it's like, yeah, boots, like, that's the first thing that came to their mind. In surfing, it has waves, exercise, ocean, pirates.
Zack Carter:So all like, these are like kind of the random words. Right? And then you'll do it one more time. Right? So out of these words that you write, you're gonna do it one more time.
Zack Carter:Okay? As you kind of finish this map, as you map out all these ideas, you then circle the ones that kinda mean something to you. Right? So this person, pirates meant something, exotic locations, bicycles, racing, exploring, tropical beach. And so if, you know, if this person did this mind map, they might say, okay, what job has these elements in common?
Zack Carter:So maybe they're like, you know, if I if I was a travel agent, I'd be able to, like, help people do these things. If I was a tour guide, maybe I could be a bicycle tour guide in Rome. I've always wanted to live in Rome. Okay. Go be a bicycle tour guide in Rome.
Zack Carter:And so, like, you get to be outdoors, you get to ride bikes like you love, you get to teach people about the city. Right? And so you can use a mind map to then draw out ideas of potential career options. Sure. Any thoughts, Mark?
Mark Odland:I love it. I love the creativity and I think this this comes back. I think the pastor, I think his name was Frederick Beechner, if I remember. But his definition of vocation or calling, right, was where one of your greatest passions intersects with a world's the world's genuine need. Right.
Mark Odland:So the fact that there's a lot of supply and demand, there's an economy of, you know, a service or product that people want. And if your passions and interests can overlap with something like that.
Music:Awesome.
Mark Odland:I mean, then you feel like you're in this sweet spot in life. Right? Work doesn't even feel like work. And a lot of people can't say that. Right?
Mark Odland:There are a lot. And so and maybe you'll get to this, Zach. But, you know, being able to even just have that in your mind, even if it doesn't happen right away. Mhmm. It seems like that that's exciting to be able to hope, to be able to dream.
Mark Odland:And I guess the last thing I'd say is I know a lot of the guys that listen to our podcast, they're trying to balance a lot. They're trying to how do I honor my own god given gifts and passions and still provide for my family? Right? And at Lion Counseling, you know, through the the first three core values are provide, protect, and then create
Music:Mhmm.
Mark Odland:And then love and then leave a legacy. Right? So so it's interesting to think about how that that dynamic tension between providing, protecting, and creating. And sometimes it's it's not it's not super clear, and we have to go through a process like this to help things rise to the surface. So I really like that exercise.
Mark Odland:Kind of get out of your head. So many things in life, right, in the therapy counseling world is like you get it out of your head and you put it on paper. Just makes a big difference with kinda organizing your thoughts.
Zack Carter:Oh, yeah. 100%. Yeah. Yeah. I love it.
Zack Carter:Well, so that's step one. We gather the ideas. We put them on paper just like you were saying that, like, just like Mark is saying, it's true. Like, so many activities and counseling is like, let's just put it on paper.
Mark Odland:So I'm gonna be a pirate, Zach. I I just gotta get that out. I'm gonna be pirate. That's perfect. That's perfect.
Zack Carter:That's my takeaway from your whole
Mark Odland:podcast today.
Zack Carter:Yes. Zach Zach said I should be a pirate.
Mark Odland:I should quit my job. Sorry. Sorry, honey.
Zack Carter:Need more pirates in our in our world, clearly. Yeah. So Next time, you'll see Mark with eyeliner. Well, he'll have the dreads, the scarf. He'll be he'll now be married to Amber Heard.
Zack Carter:And so Oh, that would not be good. Oh, Johnny Depp references. Okay. So okay. Sorry.
Zack Carter:That was a rude distraction, Zach. I apologize. No. Totally fine. Totally fine.
Zack Carter:We we saw the squirrel. We we went with the squirrel. So here back to the steps. If you're still with us, everyone's like, I'm going back to Huberman. I don't blame you.
Zack Carter:I don't blame you. So the steps. Okay. We wanna gather the ideas, including pirates. We wanna gather the ideas.
Zack Carter:We wanna list them out. Number number two, we want we want to edit them down. Okay? We wanna find our top three. There's something about the top three psychologically that works.
Zack Carter:I keep reading whether once again, whether it was like the the dating books or whether it's the career books, they keep coming up with like the same research example of there was a supermarket where they did a study where they brought out like 24 different jams. Yes, it drew more people to the table to look at the jams, but almost no one bought anything. It was like 8% of people that looked at it, something like that, actually bought a jam. But then when you shrunk it down to three jams, less people were drawn to the table. But the people that did get drawn to the table more often, they would actually pick something.
Zack Carter:Right? And so something like 25% or 30% of the people bought jam. Right? So there's something about our psychology that like three is like a good number if we're like trying to make a decision. Because once it's 24, once it's 50, we once again, we get immobilized by trying to pick the perfect thing.
Zack Carter:Right? And it's just too many options. Our brain doesn't like too many options. So Yeah. We have our list of things that we've listed out.
Zack Carter:We've listed all the possibilities of different career options. We said here are the top three things. And then we want to create a five year plan of what Mhmm. What would that actually look like? What would it actually look like if I pursued this path?
Zack Carter:Okay. So I'm gonna do we're gonna try something new everybody. I'm gonna try this screen share. Oh, nice. Technology never works on the first try.
Zack Carter:Okay, cool. Cool. Alright. So we've got I basically laid out if I knew about this, what would my five year plan have looked like when I was trying to begin the process of moving towards becoming a counselor. And essentially, the first thing was I would want to plan out how would I become a counselor.
Zack Carter:So at the time, you know, I sort of kind of did a version of the first thing that we mentioned where I like thought through what are the things that I've liked about my career. And stuff came up, like, I I love helping people. When I was a college pastor, I love, like, the one on one hangouts, especially with my leaders versus like going up and preaching to people. Like, could do it. I just didn't love it.
Zack Carter:Right. When I my favorite job was being an RA. When I look back at being an RA, it was like relationships with individual people. I was able to I was able to mentor them. I was able to have relationships with them.
Zack Carter:So I was like, man, I you know. And at the time, was listening to a ton of Jordan Peterson. Was like, man, I wanna be like Jordan Peterson. Right? So initially in my plan, was like, alright.
Zack Carter:Clinical psychologist, let's get a PhD. Let's go. Right? And so I was planning it out. Okay.
Zack Carter:What do I need? Well, I need to go back to school and take some undergrad classes. So you can see in my plan that's at the bottom. So take between zero and one. Take my undergrad classes.
Zack Carter:I need to I need to have psychology classes. You need to be able to take the GRE. So if you don't know what the GRE is, it's like the SAT to get in college, the GRE gets you into grad school, right? It's Masters And so I needed to buy a study program. I needed to study for the GRE.
Zack Carter:I did that for about a year while I was taking my undergrad classes. So that was kinda my first year. Right? And last thing, which is actually the first thing, is I needed to kinda plan out what I needed to do. I forget if I said So that or I planned it out, and then here are the steps I actually took.
Zack Carter:Right? Between year one and year two, I took the GRE. I applied to grad school. No callbacks. No one wanted me.
Zack Carter:So I was like, what do I do now? Right? And I had a mentor that was the head of the grad the head of the psych program. And she was just like, you should think about taking, like, one of our master's classes. You should like, just take one and see what happens.
Zack Carter:Know, if worse comes to worse, it'll next year when you apply to to PhD programs, you'll show that, hey. I'm really serious. I'm taking
Mark Odland:Yeah.
Zack Carter:Master's classes. So okay. So, you know, so I did that. I well, so I had an interview for the master's program when she said that. I accepted the offer.
Zack Carter:Right? And so between year two and three, I'm taking my grad classes. Right? I didn't wanna just, you know, my wife and I made a deal that like initially when I took one class, she was, you know, I was working. And then I had a conversation with her.
Zack Carter:I'm like, are you okay if I just do this full time? You know, you would have to carry the financial burden initially, but this will invest in my future. She's like, yeah. Let's do it. So I was like, okay.
Zack Carter:Great. So initially, it was just me taking grad classes. And then I was itching to, like, do something. And so I reached out and got a part time job coaching people with addictions. So I did that.
Zack Carter:And then during that year, I had to start searching for internships, is how Mark and I got connected. So between year three and four, actually continuing grad school, I was doing my internship, and then I continued my part time job. And then lastly, between year four and five, Mark offered me a job. I took it. And I started a certification program, right, to, like, continue to build my knowledge base, right?
Zack Carter:So that's the five year plan, right? And so you can do this for yourself, you can do this drawing the way that I've done it, and you just write out, here are the actual steps that it will take to have the kind of career that I want. If you don't know what the steps are, that's what that first plan your steps out. Right? So do your research, plan it out.
Zack Carter:What does it look like? Talk to people who are doing it. I did that as well. I went and talked to a counselor and I was like, dude, I'm seeing online that they're like, you'll make $30,000 a year as a counselor. I was like, why would I do that when in banking I'm making like 40?
Zack Carter:Like, I'm gonna get into a lot of debt to make 30? And he's like, you know, he was very appropriate. I I tried to ask him very appropriately, like, what what can I expect, you know, my first year without you telling me exactly what you make in a year? And he was like, oh, I'll just tell you. He's like, I make 120 before taxes, about 100 after taxes and expenses.
Zack Carter:I was like, you make $100? They told me 30 online. He's like, yeah, you just gotta find your clients and you can make that kind of money. So that gave me permission to like, if I hadn't talked to him, I may not have pursued this path. So, yeah.
Zack Carter:Yeah. That's those are my my thoughts on like second is, reduce to three. Three ideas. Do your five year plan and you would do that five year plan for the first thing. If that doesn't work out, what would your second thing do be?
Zack Carter:And then the third job would be if money wasn't an option and no one would and you're not afraid of anyone judging you, what could that third idea be? Okay. Mark.
Mark Odland:That's that's awesome. Yeah. I think it's, so helpful. I mean, I think a lot of times we don't give ourselves permission to dream like that. Right?
Mark Odland:It just feels too impractical. It feels like too much work. But then if we actually just be honest with ourselves, if I give myself permission to dream in five years, what would it look like? What would my life look like? What would my job, my career look like?
Mark Odland:Okay, that seems like a big thing, but then you start to work backwards. And
Zack Carter:all of a
Mark Odland:sudden, they're actually milestones, they're steps, right? They're steps along the way. And I think one of the beauties too of coming from that faith perspective too is at every part of this process, you can be like, all right, God, don't have it figured out. Please, please direct my steps. Please shut the doors when I'm not supposed to go that direction, right?
Mark Odland:Please help me to discover unexpected opportunities as they arise. Let me be ready and open to receiving them, right? And so it's kind of like old school, right? They had, you know, not my will, but yours be done. And if it's not meant to be, shut the door in my face and I could be at peace with that.
Mark Odland:And so we come from that place of it's not I think a lot of times we talk about paradox with clients. Right? It's not either or. It's not either. It's it's all on me, and I have to do it just perfectly, just the right way, where it's all on God, I'm just gonna sit back and just wait for things, good things to happen.
Mark Odland:It's like, no. That's not how life tends to work. Right? We we have to be strategic. We have to invest.
Mark Odland:We have to put in the work. Mhmm. And then we also surrender to a bigger plan. Right? And those things that tends to be a good recipe for success measured in various ways.
Zack Carter:Yeah. That's perfectly said. That that sounds very similar to what I tell people around finding a spouse. It's like, you're probably not gonna find her in your basement. Let's get out and let's let's get out and do some stuff.
Zack Carter:Right? And so it's the same with the career, like, out and try things. Which leads us into our third point. So well done Mark has led us into the third point, is a bias towards action. Right?
Zack Carter:So we've listed out here are the options that might be a good fit for me. Trim it down to three. Right? You can either trim it down to three in your list or you can do the other thing that I just said was like, here's my first option. If AI came and took all those jobs and those don't exist anymore, here's the second option.
Zack Carter:If that doesn't work out, if I hadn't, you know, wasn't worried about money I didn't care if people would judge me, what kind of career would I have? So whichever you prefer whichever direction you prefer, you can do that as your second step. Third step is just a bias towards action. So kind of like the example I gave earlier is that I took it a step at a time. Right?
Zack Carter:It was like buying the study program for the GRE, paying you know, you gotta pay in advance to go take the GRE, you pay it. So now it's like, okay, I I gotta take it now. Like, gotta study now. They're not gonna give me my money back. Right?
Zack Carter:It was, I didn't make it into the PhD programs like I had hoped. So someone said, why don't you just try the master's program? And I loved it. I loved it. Yeah.
Zack Carter:And this is this is another thing we haven't even talked about yet, is that well, we kinda we kinda touched on it with the entertainment industry, which is, like, sometimes our idea of what the career actually is is not what the career actually is. Right? And so I thought the entertainment industry was gonna be fun, exciting. I was gonna be on the stage. I was gonna be famous.
Zack Carter:No. I was behind the scenes. They were were going after me for every mistake was making. Right? It was highly stressful.
Zack Carter:Highly stressful. That's actually what the entertainment industry was. And I was blessed to be able to work in it to like find that out. Right? And so everyone was kinda warning me about PhD programs.
Zack Carter:They're like, you know, this is like 90% research. And I was like, I don't like research. Like, I can do it. But I don't like love I doing wanna like talk to people. And so they're like, you can keep trying for this thing, but that's what the next five years is gonna be is you doing research all the time.
Zack Carter:And I was like, I just wanna talk to people. Right? And so when I ended up in the master's program as a way better fit, because they were like teaching me how to talk to people, which is exactly what I wanted. And so so the bias towards action gives you an opportunity to to actually try the thing that you think you might enjoy. Right?
Zack Carter:And so I have I've I've got clients that are like, I wanna be a firefighter. Okay. Have you volunteered at the local fire depart the fire department facility thing? Whatever it's called. The firehouse?
Zack Carter:There it is.
Mark Odland:Yeah. Yeah.
Zack Carter:Have you have you volunteered at the local firehouse? So there someone might be like, oh, I wanna be in the military. Okay. Or you haven't taken any steps towards that? They're like, no.
Zack Carter:I'm kinda nervous about it. Okay. You could go part time. Like, I've got buddies that have done part time military. Do you wanna try that and just see?
Zack Carter:Like, do you do you actually enjoy it? Do you actually enjoy being in the military? You could do like I did with the the counseling that, like, if you can't actually go like, you can't, like, try out to be a counselor. So the next thing is, like, hey, go talk to people who are doing it. Say, like, hey, can I buy you like, I bought the guy coffee?
Zack Carter:Was, hey, can I buy you coffee and just ask you some questions about what it's like?
Mark Odland:Yeah. Yeah.
Zack Carter:And that's a that's a good way to find out, will I actually wanna do this. Right? So a bias towards action. Set small goals and start moving towards the thing that you think you might want to do.
Mark Odland:That's great, Zach. Yeah. And I think that's that's so important because it's you're kind of pressure testing it with other people in the situations that reveal the thing for what it actually is. Right? Because there can be a big mismatch between what we expect a job or a career path to look like.
Mark Odland:And like you said, the entertainment industry was very different. And as you know, like whether it's New York or Hollywood or wherever it is, like people can be behind the scenes for decades before they get their break, and and many don't ever get their break. Mhmm. Right? So it's yeah.
Mark Odland:I think there's there's something to that. And I think there's something about finding a balance between discernment, slow, methodical, small steps, and then these moments where you just kind of kind of get over your fear and go for it. Right? I was listening. We we referenced before the, you know, Navy SEAL, Jocko Willink, who's got a popular podcast.
Zack Carter:And Mhmm.
Mark Odland:He was talking about motivation and discipline on on a recent episode. And he talked about reps, right, like basketball fans out there, like Kobe Bryant, Michael Jordan. They made so many baskets, but they also made miss the most. Right? Because they just put in the reps.
Mark Odland:They put in extra time after practice. Right? They they went through these these repetitions, little repetitions over and over and over again, which in turn led to confidence. And then Jocko talked about when it came to the military, there'd be this sense that there's a humility of I don't have the answers. I'm gonna ask other people to lead, to step up.
Mark Odland:I'm going to admit my mistakes. I'm gonna keep learning. But then he said, once you put those night vision goggles on, like, when they were time it was time for the mission, he's like, all that fades away. He's like, now it's go time. Right?
Mark Odland:So it's and and and he's like and then he at that point, it's like failure is not an option. At that point, it's like you imagine yourself being successful. You imagine yourself, Okay, I'm going to I'm going nail this interview. I am going to meet my goal. Right?
Mark Odland:And again, does it always work? No. But I think that that humility, that honesty, testing things like you're saying is just is just so important. Because let's be honest, if you jump headfirst into something without any context, it could look like a great act of bravery, but it might actually be foolish. And and so I think this is a great way to balance that, balance dreaming with the practicality of testing, testing, testing, trying things out Mhmm.
Mark Odland:And then letting the truth kind of emerge as the dust settles or as the fog the fog lifts.
Zack Carter:Mhmm. 100%. Yeah. And as I found out like, I think as you and I have kinda shared in our stories that, like, not everything goes according to plan. Like, we've just, like, planned this out.
Zack Carter:You know? And there's a there's a lot of things that go sideways on you. Like, I I expected that I would be able to get into PhD programs. Right? And they're, like, 1% literally 1% acceptance rates into clinical psychology programs.
Zack Carter:Right? Dang. And so it didn't matter that I had good grades, that my GRE was pretty good, like, you know, it it it's, you know and so, hey, how do we how do we pivot and keep moving forward? Right? How do we how do we keep trying to progress to the thing that we're trying to do?
Zack Carter:Then we create our career. Right? And so yeah. So final thought is just, as you're listening to this, you're like, what's step one? Step one is go make your list.
Zack Carter:Right? So go make your list of potential career options that you might enjoy. Right? After that's done, once you get started, a lot of times, the ball's rolling and you keep going. Okay.
Zack Carter:Edit that list down to three. Right? And then it's, okay. What's my first step? What's the first thing that I can do to to move towards this career that I wanna try?
Mark Odland:I love it. That's so practical, Zach. And I I'm just thinking right now about some of the guys I'm working right? Like, this could speak so clearly to someone who's newly married, who's entering the workforce, who's trying to figure things out, where do I go from here? But I know from experience, this also applies to guys, maybe in their early mid 30s, or even in their early 40s where they're like, I've been grinding away at this job that's kind of sucking the life out of me.
Mark Odland:It's kind of crushing my soul a little bit every day and I I'm a good provider but I'm not, you know, something's missing and they're asking the same questions and it's so good to
Zack Carter:have
Mark Odland:this have a method like this. It's just get the ball rolling, right? To get the ball rolling and I guess the only last thing I'd say, Zach, is, you know, I know we do have a certain percentage, a smaller percentage, but of guys we work with who are just kind of more wired entrepreneurial like in an entrepreneurial way. And they may have a bigger risk tolerance than the average guy, right? And so for them, it might be, you know, they find the treasure in that field and they sell everything they have to get that field, right?
Mark Odland:Like, like it says in the Bible, they they they can swallow that bigger risk because of the bigger reward but here's the key. You have to be able to know have confidence in yourself that you can recover if it doesn't work out. It's like these crazy podcasts where the guys, the the millionaire is like, yeah, if I lost all my money, I'd become a millionaire again in one year
Zack Carter:if I
Mark Odland:started with nothing. Like, dude, that is a lot of confidence. And I better know how like, wow.
Zack Carter:But. Wow.
Mark Odland:But that's, you know, these guys have had multiple failures, but they have that they're like, it's not just situational. It's like there's something inside of me that allows myself to take those risks. That's not that's not most of us, right? Most of us, it's going to be where my gifts and passions, how can they intersect with the thing that can provide for my family and and how can I, like you said, start small, test the waters, just if nothing else guys, today, if nothing else, like Zach said, just start brainstorming, doing that, doing that mind map And if you're listening, would love, I know Zach would too, just to read the comments? Like if you do actually do the mind map, what are the things that come up?
Mark Odland:And if anyone says pirate and and we get your contact information, I'd be happy to send you a free book or something like that. Solid. It means you listened. You listened
Zack Carter:to You won. Mark's giving away free counseling sessions for those who put pirate in the comment section.
Mark Odland:It comes with strings attached. It strings attached. It's a whole different program. It's not for everybody.
Zack Carter:K. Wow. Alright. Alright. We're about we're about to end this thing, and I just just derailed it again.
Zack Carter:So you're welcome. Alright. Yeah. That's all I have, man. So
Mark Odland:Alright. Well, thanks, everyone. Thanks for listening. Hit that subscribe button. We are getting close to the 10 k mark for subscribers.
Mark Odland:Thanks to all of you, which is incredible, exciting, humbling, and just a testament to to yeah, the response we're getting from you guys knowing this is striking a nerve, practical advice for guys trying to trying to crush it in life and and be good men and keep the faith and working hard and all that good stuff. So, keep at it, guys, and we'll talk to you soon.
Zack Carter:If you're looking for extra help
Mark Odland:Yes. That's always good.
Zack Carter:If you're looking for extra help, go to escapethecagenow.com, and you can reach out. We have a thirty minute free consult if you're looking for help. Especially if you're looking for help in your career, we can do that as well.
Mark Odland:Alright. We can see you. Bye, everybody.
Zack Carter:Alright. We'll cut it off then. Bye.
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